When do you admit that you love someone?

[chevalier]

Ah, I see.
I had surgery on my knee once, and even though it was healed and painless, I didn’t want to walk on it.

Precisely.

Well, I suppose the chocolate and the prunes cancelled each other out…

I could swear it had an effect and I got a nice thank you mail shortly afterwards.

Oh boy…Better wear kevlar for that one

I can handle it.

well…I had considered asking her a question that was…well…not FORWARD, but perhaps hinting. I decided against it…but obviously she didn’t.

Well, there tons of ways to put the message across, but the most fun is always just saying it out right, I guess. At least the most rewarding. Then again, you can’t be blunt. Sometimes I tend to be very obvious but still in such a way that I can say, “Look! What a nice weather,” when called on it.

Hmm…But I don’t think we agreed on any names exactly. But we liked each other’s list of names.

No Patrick?

…

…umm…Are women the only ones allowed to do that…?
Because i’ve done it before, too…:blushing:

Hmm… Can’t recall doing that, although I was always been flattered when my friends did that. Generally friends more than others. Maybe I had something in me that made them. Well, perhaps in one case or two I did some matching.

 

[Belgarion]

I could swear it had an effect and I got a nice thank you mail shortly afterwards.

Well its too bad you don’t want to walk on your bad leg…nice analogy, right?

I can handle it.

Escalation…they’ll buy armor piercing rounds

Well, there tons of ways to put the message across, but the most fun is always just saying it out right, I guess. At least the most rewarding. Then again, you can’t be blunt. Sometimes I tend to be very obvious but still in such a way that I can say, “Look! What a nice weather,” when called on it.

Oh heck yeah I LOVE being blunt. I usually am.
But like you said, I can’t be.
You got any lines that might work in this case?

No Patrick?

'fraid not.
She seems to have her mind set on continuing family traditions. (All the boys in her family end with -el, and all the girls with -a)
Which is fine by me, but not will ALL the kids
Gotta have Anthony in there somewhere!

Hmm… Can’t recall doing that, although I was always been flattered when my friends did that. Generally friends more than others. Maybe I had something in me that made them. Well, perhaps in one case or two I did some matching.

'tis fun, isn’t it?
Plus, I don’t regret ever matching up names with other women.
Sure, I regret everything else…, just not doing that with the names.
Though I like the way her name works better than any of the others

 

[chevalier]

Escalation…they’ll buy armor piercing rounds

I don’t need no armour anyway…

Oh heck yeah I LOVE being blunt. I usually am.
But like you said, I can’t be.
You got any lines that might work in this case?

Yeah, I do. But you’ll be better off coming up with some on your own. You don’t want to owe that moment to me.

'fraid not.
She seems to have her mind set on continuing family traditions.

Awch…

'tis fun, isn’t it?
Plus, I don’t regret ever matching up names with other women.
Sure, I regret everything else…, just not doing that with the names.

I don’t regret playing chess.

 

[Belgarion]

I don’t need no armour anyway…

Its a bird! its a plane! Its chevalier!!

Yeah, I do. But you’ll be better off coming up with some on your own. You don’t want to owe that moment to me.

Drat…I never can come up with those kinds of things ahead of time…It always has to be on the spot…

Awch…

Ok, I shouldn’t have said “she has her mind set” since that’s probably not true. Those were just the names she liked and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I don’t regret playing chess.

Which probably means you won, right?

 

[chevalier]

Its a bird! its a plane! Its chevalier!!

Spits on his hands and grabs a sword

Drat…I never can come up with those kinds of things ahead of time…It always has to be on the spot…

Yes, it is. They started coming to me only after such occasions. But at some point practice made err… less imperfect and they started coming right when they were needed. When I was a kid, I stuttered and was shy. Not so long ago, I would reply in French when a somewhat senior female lawyer called on the intercom, and ask if she was calling to invite me to coffee in the law firm’s kitchen. I went to coffee pretty often. Not the wittiest thing I pulled off there, either. The firm believed I could get anything, as long as the person to talk to was a lady. The mundane reality, however, was that most lawyers didn’t know how to talk to non-lawyers.

Ok, I shouldn’t have said “she has her mind set” since that’s probably not true. Those were just the names she liked and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I go by favourite saints myself. It would take a very special woman for me to open up about those and spill my guts. Guess that’s a clue about relationships.

Which probably means you won, right?

Yeah. But I once got beaten in checkers by a girl (I was 17) I had only just taught to play. Thrice in a row. I made it 8:3 from that point, but I have a nagging suspcicion she threw it.

 

[Belgarion]

Spits on his hands and grabs a sword

Dont forget your tights

Yes, it is. They started coming to me only after such occasions. But at some point practice made err… less imperfect and they started coming right when they were needed. When I was a kid, I stuttered and was shy. Not so long ago, I would reply in French when a somewhat senior female lawyer called on the intercom, and ask if she was calling to invite me to coffee in the law firm’s kitchen. I went to coffee pretty often. Not the wittiest thing I pulled off there, either. The firm believed I could get anything, as long as the person to talk to was a lady. The mundane reality, however, was that most lawyers didn’t know how to talk to non-lawyers.

wow, smoother than a smoothie

BTW, I’m not a lawyer. You seem to do rather well here.
hm…my uncle was a lawyer though, and I seem to remind everyone of him…

I go by favourite saints myself. It would take a very special woman for me to open up about those and spill my guts. Guess that’s a clue about relationships.

Yeah, don’t tell me then…

But yeah, she went with archangels, and I went with my confirmation name (Anthony) and a video game character (Vergil)
I’m not sure if I mentioned something else…And no…I didn’t mention the fact that it was a video game character that inspired my appreciation for the name “Vergil”

Yeah. But I once got beaten in checkers by a girl (I was 17) I had only just taught to play. Thrice in a row. I made it 8:3 from that point, but I have a nagging suspcicion she threw it.

How sweet of her.
Maybe she was trying to impress you, then decided she was beating you too badly…

 

[Jay53]

OK, so I asked my husband if he ever matched up our names while we were dating and he looked at me like I was nuts. At first he had absolutely no idea what I was talking about and then when he understood I got the look: :ehh: (I about fell over when he did it! ) So there’s one man in the “no” column for having done that.

But, as I mentioned he did ask my parents for my hand in marriage so he got HUGE brownie points for that!! I just couldn’t believe my parents kept it a secret that they knew he was going to ask me. In general does the younger generation still do that or even consider doing that? (Neither of my sisters’ husbands did it, so I thought the tradition was going by the wayside. ) Maybe I should start a poll.

 

[Belgarion]

OK, so I asked my husband if he ever matched up our names while we were dating and he looked at me like I was nuts. At first he had absolutely no idea what I was talking about and then when he understood I got the look: :ehh: (I about fell over when he did it! ) So there’s one man in the “no” column for having done that.

You called it!!

But, as I mentioned he did ask my parents for my hand in marriage so he got HUGE brownie points for that!! I just couldn’t believe my parents kept it a secret that they knew he was going to ask me. In general does the younger generation still do that or even consider doing that? (Neither of my sisters’ husbands did it, so I thought the tradition was going by the wayside. ) Maybe I should start a poll.

I wouldn’t be able to represent the younger generation…I know, I AM 19, but I’m weird.
However, I will say that my brother-in-law talked to my parents about it before he proposed to my sister…then again, she WAS living at home!
And I of course plan on doing something similar.
But I have many friends (Good Catholics, traditional as well) who wouldn’t do the same. Especially since they plan on getting married a few years into their twenties at least.
So that’s a “”

 

[chevalier]

Dont forget your tights

Eeek. I prefer the mediaeval time *before *tights, as far as fashion goes. It’s a great thing we’ve finally returned to good old barbarian trousers and no more clingy stuff.

wow, smoother than a smoothie

Thanks. Can do even better but sometimes wonder about the morality of it and end up not doing it. Too much people skills affects people’s free will.

BTW, I’m not a lawyer. You seem to do rather well here.
hm…my uncle was a lawyer though, and I seem to remind everyone of him…

So, Belgarion, is torts first or contracts?

Yeah, don’t tell me then…

Heh. I don’t suffer from what I call “lonerism” that’s common in my generation. You can call it reluctant to connect on some levels in my case. Much of the reason I’m single. If you’ve done things from ancient Greek to modern IT with tons of stuff in the middle, it has shaped you in such a way that connecting with the typical person on a very deep level is rather difficult.

But yeah, she went with archangels,

From what I’ve heard, there were at some point four core servers on the Vatican network, called Gabriel, Michael, Raphael and Ariel.

How sweet of her.
Maybe she was trying to impress you, then decided she was beating you too badly…

The latter is more likely than the former.

In general does the younger generation still do that or even consider doing that? (Neither of my sisters’ husbands did it, so I thought the tradition was going by the wayside. ) Maybe I should start a poll.

I have an inclination towards it because those traditional things run deep in me - but without blind adherence to the letter. It’s more about the spirit.

Depending on the relationship with the future in-laws and the particular circumstances, I might do that, although I have theological doubts as to the institution itself. No human power can supplant the woman’s consent AND the woman’s consent is essential. ALSO, marriage is no matter for obedience to any mortal authority. Therefore it looks bad asking for parental consent.

As such, if the matter of the custom is bad, keeping an external appearance of it would serve no good goal. Pretending to do a bad thing is not a good thing.

On the other hand, you can look at it as parents having some kind of veto power and you not wanting to break up a family. But that consent of the father or mother of the bride is strictly extrinsic to the marriage itself. What is something I caution Belgarion against is treating with the father over the head of the young lady.

If the understanding were any different from what I outlined in the last part of my post above, I would refuse to do it even at the cost of getting dumped.

 

[chevalier]

Same with kneeling. Lots of people do that, few people understand it. If you put it in the right context, in the middle ages males in the feudal hierarchy would kneel to their superiors. This included families of superiors and people who were not actual overlords but honour nonetheless dictated obedience or at least deference. For this reason, one would kneel to females of a higher status. At some point, also, to those of one’s own class, since it was a custom to treat women with higher favour than men of the same class.

If someone feels like that, sure. Otherwise, it’s more Disneyland than chivalry. It’s mostly harmless, but it can put wrong ideas in people’s heads. Itself, it’s not wrong. Ideas it can give, can be.

 

[Jay53]

I have an inclination towards it because those traditional things run deep in me - but without blind adherence to the letter. It’s more about the spirit.

Depending on the relationship with the future in-laws and the particular circumstances, I might do that, although I have theological doubts as to the institution itself. No human power can supplant the woman’s consent AND the woman’s consent is essential. ALSO, marriage is no matter for obedience to any mortal authority. Therefore it looks bad asking for parental consent.

As such, if the matter of the custom is bad, keeping an external appearance of it would serve no good goal. Pretending to do a bad thing is not a good thing.

On the other hand, you can look at it as parents having some kind of veto power and you not wanting to break up a family. But that consent of the father or mother of the bride is strictly extrinsic to the marriage itself. What is something I caution Belgarion against is treating with the father over the head of the young lady.

If the understanding were any different from what I outlined in the last part of my post above, I would refuse to do it even at the cost of getting dumped.

I agree. I think it’s a nice tradition, but it obviously wouldn’t/shouldn’t work for everyone. Some people, unfortunately, have horrible parents and this tradition would just not work for them. I just happened to be blessed with awesome parents who love my husband. And I believe their response to DH was that it wasn’t their decision, but was up to me.

Anyhow, sorry for going off topic. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Belgarion]

Eeek. I prefer the mediaeval time *before *tights, as far as fashion goes. It’s a great thing we’ve finally returned to good old barbarian trousers and no more clingy stuff.

I was more referring to Superman…

Thanks. Can do even better but sometimes wonder about the morality of it and end up not doing it. Too much people skills affects people’s free will.

Wait wait…are you saying that you are so good that you can bypass free will?

So, Belgarion, is torts first or contracts?

Uh…torts don’t deal with contractual obligations, right?
at least…that’s what wikipedia says…
As you can see, its mostly my personality that is similar to my uncle’s…not the actual lawyer skillz

Heh. I don’t suffer from what I call “lonerism” that’s common in my generation. You can call it reluctant to connect on some levels in my case. Much of the reason I’m single. If you’ve done things from ancient Greek to modern IT with tons of stuff in the middle, it has shaped you in such a way that connecting with the typical person on a very deep level is rather difficult.

that sounds kinda complicated there

From what I’ve heard, there were at some point four core servers on the Vatican network, called Gabriel, Michael, Raphael and Ariel.

Yeah but I don’t think I’m using Ariel…That would be too much like “The little Mermaid”

The latter is more likely than the former.

ouch, then…

I have an inclination towards it because those traditional things run deep in me - but without blind adherence to the letter. It’s more about the spirit.

Depending on the relationship with the future in-laws and the particular circumstances, I might do that, although I have theological doubts as to the institution itself. No human power can supplant the woman’s consent AND the woman’s consent is essential. ALSO, marriage is no matter for obedience to any mortal authority. Therefore it looks bad asking for parental consent.

As such, if the matter of the custom is bad, keeping an external appearance of it would serve no good goal. Pretending to do a bad thing is not a good thing.

On the other hand, you can look at it as parents having some kind of veto power and you not wanting to break up a family. But that consent of the father or mother of the bride is strictly extrinsic to the marriage itself. What is something I caution Belgarion against is treating with the father over the head of the young lady.

If the understanding were any different from what I outlined in the last part of my post above, I would refuse to do it even at the cost of getting dumped.

I see it more like just getting the parent’s blessing.
I’d like it, and I’d like relations between the family to be positive…but I can live without it.

Same with kneeling. Lots of people do that, few people understand it. If you put it in the right context, in the middle ages males in the feudal hierarchy would kneel to their superiors. This included families of superiors and people who were not actual overlords but honour nonetheless dictated obedience or at least deference. For this reason, one would kneel to females of a higher status. At some point, also, to those of one’s own class, since it was a custom to treat women with higher favour than men of the same class.

If someone feels like that, sure. Otherwise, it’s more Disneyland than chivalry. It’s mostly harmless, but it can put wrong ideas in people’s heads. Itself, it’s not wrong. Ideas it can give, can be.

I treat women with respect…I don’t necessarily kneel to them…
Though I’m fairly certain at one point I’ll kneel to a woman

I agree. I think it’s a nice tradition, but it obviously wouldn’t/shouldn’t work for everyone. Some people, unfortunately, have horrible parents and this tradition would just not work for them. I just happened to be blessed with awesome parents who love my husband. And I believe their response to DH was that it wasn’t their decision, but was up to me.

Well, keep in mind that I’m not asking anyone to get married now…So its a little less serious.
Secondly, your parents have the right idea.
And lastly…this young lady APPARENTLY put the whole permission thing into the hands of her father. But then again…horror stories I’ve heard suggest it might not have been all her idea. Who knows though?

Anyhow, sorry for going off topic. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

…TV guide says nothing is on, eh?
Drat, its up to me to entertain the masses.

 

[chevalier]

I was more referring to Superman…

Thanks.

Wait wait…are you saying that you are so good that you can bypass free will?

No, but the effect is not exactly a balanced review of all options.

Uh…torts don’t deal with contractual obligations, right?
at least…that’s what wikipedia says…

So you get what it is about.

As you can see, its mostly my personality that is similar to my uncle’s…not the actual lawyer skillz

You can’t be far from it if you wiki stuff before replying.

that sounds kinda complicated there

Certain personality ails are more popular than others these days. People are prone to needing a lot of “me time”, others can’t do anything alone.

ouch, then…

Been there some 40 times. That one really didn’t give me much headache compared to others.

I see it more like just getting the parent’s blessing.

Remember that if you want a blessing, you don’t ask for permission.

And lastly…this young lady APPARENTLY put the whole permission thing into the hands of her father. But then again…horror stories I’ve heard suggest it might not have been all her idea. Who knows though?

I hope the contradiction can be explained. And permission isn’t as bad as mandate. But still. I’m getting shivers when I think about it.

 

[Belgarion]

Thanks.

No, but the effect is not exactly a balanced review of all options.

…Ah…so super-persuasion…

So you get what it is about.

Like the Hokey-Pokey apparently…

You can’t be far from it if you wiki stuff before replying.

Well, I figured it’d be better than saying “Wut?”

Certain personality ails are more popular than others these days. People are prone to needing a lot of “me time”, others can’t do anything alone.

I know quite a few people in the latter category…ALWAYS doing something social…

Been there some 40 times. That one really didn’t give me much headache compared to others.

So that was a good time for you?

Remember that if you want a blessing, you don’t ask for permission.

Of course. But then again, that’s marriage.
While she’s in her parent’s house, its understandable that they would need permission. But there are limits to my understanding of that. you know them.

I hope the contradiction can be explained. And permission isn’t as bad as mandate. But still. I’m getting shivers when I think about it.

Wait…let me clarify
Permission to DATE, or rather court. Not get married!!
Sure, there’ll be asking for blessings, but when I pop the question, I’ll be out on my own, and thus clearly able to get married regardless of what they want. I just want them to actually GO to the wedding…assuming of course that this young woman is the one.
Its not as scary as I’m making it sound, I guess.

I think the big deal is working on myself right now.
For instance, procrastination…lol
I should be editing and adding endnotes to a research report right now! The longer I spend on these things, the longer I’ll have to wait to graduate, the longer I’ll have to wait before I can get a career going, and the longer I’ll have to wait to get married…

:tsktsk: I should know better…

 

[chevalier]

…Ah…so super-persuasion…

Persuasion alone isn’t a problem because that’s optional enough. But when you’re a good speaker at that, you can practically compell people to develop certain impressions. Good for a lecturer, scary for a lawyer because as long as you exaggerate, you know the court is there to do its job. Matters are different if you gain magnetic influence on the court. Not great in all aspects of plain social life with people, either. You want them to like you, not the timbre of your voice.

Well, I figured it’d be better than saying “Wut?”

First lesson learnt. Frankly, being a lawyer is mostly about checking the sources and giving an answer. All the learning is done to improve the process of putting together the answer, with occasional emphasis on making the answer more pleasant to the reader or on the research skills.

I know quite a few people in the latter category…ALWAYS doing something social…

I fear both extremes. Not like biting-my-nails-fear but like eeek-fear. You can’t marry Miss Runaway Bride and Miss Social Butterfly can be difficult at times.

So that was a good time for you?

It was 9 years ago. There wasn’t much to get over, strictly speaking.

While she’s in her parent’s house, its understandable that they would need permission.

Not really. No permission necessary for establishing an emotional connection or spending time together. Just because you live under your parents’ roof doesn’t mean they get to dictate whom you see. Especially absurd if you don’t bring that person home.

Wait…let me clarify
Permission to DATE, or rather court. Not get married!!

I see. I still believe parents don’t have the right to make such rules just because you live with them. You are *under *the family head, but you are not property.

Sure, there’ll be asking for blessings, but when I pop the question, I’ll be out on my own, and thus clearly able to get married regardless of what they want. I just want them to actually GO to the wedding…assuming of course that this young woman is the one.

Acceptance from the parents of the bride is a precious thing. It is very sad to go without it. As much as the consent is the woman’s alone to give, it feels it is only right not to do it around or against her family, but in connection with them.

I think the big deal is working on myself right now.
For instance, procrastination…lol

No one becomes a lawyer overnight.

I should be editing and adding endnotes to a research report right now! The longer I spend on these things, the longer I’ll have to wait to graduate, the longer I’ll have to wait before I can get a career going, and the longer I’ll have to wait to get married…

:tsktsk: I should know better…

Ooops. Similar in my case. Speaking of, got to be workable in 7 hours, so sayonara. Another long day ahead. I don’t know how I’m going to swallow that textbook on American tax law in the three free hours tomorrow (unless I do it late in the evening, but the exam is Friday 8:15 AM). Sigh. Taxes. Did you know that your fed tax law is in the teens of thousands, page-count-wise? I’m lucky I don’t need to delve into the specifics.

 

[Belgarion]

Persuasion alone isn’t a problem because that’s optional enough. But when you’re a good speaker at that, you can practically compell people to develop certain impressions. Good for a lecturer, scary for a lawyer because as long as you exaggerate, you know the court is there to do its job. Matters are different if you gain magnetic influence on the court. Not great in all aspects of plain social life with people, either. You want them to like you, not the timbre of your voice.

…Again…sounds like a super power…
Though its not BAD to have people like the timbre of your voice, as long as they like you, too.
Heck, you could attract them to you with your voice and magnetism, and keep them there with your personality. Layers of an onion, my friend…Now, cut yourself into a flower-like shape, dip yourself in batter, and fry yourself up…

First lesson learnt. Frankly, being a lawyer is mostly about checking the sources and giving an answer. All the learning is done to improve the process of putting together the answer, with occasional emphasis on making the answer more pleasant to the reader or on the research skills.

Is that why all the law firm commercials show shelves upon shelves of books…?

I fear both extremes. Not like biting-my-nails-fear but like eeek-fear. You can’t marry Miss Runaway Bride and Miss Social Butterfly can be difficult at times.

Agreed on that one.
I think I’m quite lucky on that front

It was 9 years ago. There wasn’t much to get over, strictly speaking.

Ah, that’s too bad.

Not really. No permission necessary for establishing an emotional connection or spending time together. Just because you live under your parents’ roof doesn’t mean they get to dictate whom you see. Especially absurd if you don’t bring that person home.

Well, I’ve obviously established an emotional bond, and I spend quite a bit of time with her.

I see. I still believe parents don’t have the right to make such rules just because you live with them. You are *under *the family head, but you are not property.

Of course, especially at this age.
But at least I can understand it.
Think of it this way, since this is the way its been explained to me (partially by her father, and partially by my own sister)
Since sometimes there are…temptations that can arise in long relationships, its ‘supposedly’ better to have shorter courtships. I don’t quite agree, but oh well.
So they like 6 month courtships, and short engagements.
My sister had said that YES there are problems with long courtships/dating relationships. So she thought the shorter courtship was a good idea, too.
So really the family is just trying to make sure that we’re both ready to get married, to minimize the problems that could arise…
I don’t know, I’ve never dated before.

Acceptance from the parents of the bride is a precious thing. It is very sad to go without it. As much as the consent is the woman’s alone to give, it feels it is only right not to do it around or against her family, but in connection with them.

Exactly. That’s what I’m trying to preserve.
I don’t want to spend time trying to mend the relationship between us and her family.
otherwise, I’d just walk up to her, sweep her off her feet and kiss her like she’s never been kissed before…Since she hasn’t

No one becomes a lawyer overnight.

like a werewolf maybe?..not to compare werewolves to lawyers…

Ooops. Similar in my case. Speaking of, got to be workable in 7 hours, so sayonara. Another long day ahead. I don’t know how I’m going to swallow that textbook on American tax law in the three free hours tomorrow (unless I do it late in the evening, but the exam is Friday 8:15 AM). Sigh. Taxes. Did you know that your fed tax law is in the teens of thousands, page-count-wise? I’m lucky I don’t need to delve into the specifics.

Yeah…and its gonna get worse apparently…
…this isn’t the politcal forum…
You wouldn’t want me to go on one of my political tirades…

 

[chevalier]

…Again…sounds like a super power…
Though its not BAD to have people like the timbre of your voice, as long as they like you, too.

Not bad at all. The point is you shouldn’t be getting a better outcome of your case because you’re more attractive than the opposing counsel and in some private situations, a compelling presence can prevent people from making the informed choices to which they are entitled.

Heck, you could attract them to you with your voice and magnetism, and keep them there with your personality.

Yes, and it would have nothing to do with any merit of your character or your arguments.

Is that why all the law firm commercials show shelves upon shelves of books…?

Possibly. You want to show the client that he won’t have to dig through all those books on his own because you’ve done the job for him.

Ah, that’s too bad.

I barely remember that girl. Really, lots of time has passed, I knew her for little time, didn’t have any significant emotional attachment.

Since sometimes there are…temptations that can arise in long relationships, its ‘supposedly’ better to have shorter courtships. I don’t quite agree, but oh well.

Informed choice > hasty choice.

HOWEVER

Marriage = work + matching, WHERE work > matching

This means that picking a spouse and focusing on the work part can actually not be so stupid. But an informed choice has its obvious benefits.

For example, you should theoretically (reasonable theory) be better off launching a business already and dealing with the market than waiting for an opportunity and playing the field, even though there is a common theory that observing and waiting for the right moment is better than being rash. Especially if you can connect it with the virtue of temperance and patience.

In many cases, I believe long courtships result in temptation, while short ones may result in null marriages. I don’t want to answer the question which is better.

So they like 6 month courtships, and short engagements.

That’s pretty much like summarising the qualities, making a list of pros and cons and a quick decision. It’s little more than evaluating an ad.

My sister had said that YES there are problems with long courtships/dating relationships. So she thought the shorter courtship was a good idea, too.

Grass is greener on the other side. Though I imagine it would be possible to meet the right woman and know after a week. If I met what people call “the girl of your dreams” or “the soulmate” (I don’t subscribe to the soulmate theory, at least in its common understanding), I think I would know. Certainly, I could tell a person sharing my values and my interests. Most people feel to me like they are from a different culture. If I met someone who didn’t, that would be a clue.

And there is no value in pointless waiting.

So yes, I can imagine wanting to marry someone I had met 6 months before, but it would have to be a very special situation.

So really the family is just trying to make sure that we’re both ready to get married, to minimize the problems that could arise…

If you eliminate the risk of fornication and get yourself in an invalid marriage, that can spare you a mortal sin. You can therefore go through much pain, while avoiding mortal sin and thus not endangering your soul (without denying the fact we need grace for salvation, it’s not through observance of the law that we are saved), but wouldn’t it be better to think of a way in which your soul doesn’t get burdened with a mortal sin but you don’t get burdened with a high risk of invalid marriage?

Obviously, if you pick a well-informed Catholic, the odds of the marriage turning null should be minimal. Moreover, two Catholics should be able to have a functional marriage barring extreme factors (i.e. even if you didn’t know the woman at all, barring some extreme incompatibilities or immaturity or psychic problems or impediment).

I don’t know, I’ve never dated before.

Strictly speaking neither have I. Never had a meeting classified as a date except once, jokingly, with a then girlfriend (and it wasn’t a date really). But I like it this way because I don’t like the idea of using the word “date”, with its mating implications, with regard to a stranger. Being from a different culture may explain this. Basically, I don’t think it’s all that great to walk up to a stranger and offer a romantic meeting, nor do I think it’s proper to engage in romantic things with multiple people at the same time. And that’s what dating is to me. When it doesn’t cross the lines of friendship, it may be fine, however. And I will take a friend to a dance or a coffee. With, say, three ladies I potentially cared for “like that”, it would, by contrast, not feel very right, much in the direction of leading on. Knowledge and consent wouldn’t deal away with this.

like a werewolf maybe?..not to compare werewolves to lawyers…

Hah, never heard that one yet.

 

[Belgarion]

Not bad at all. The point is you shouldn’t be getting a better outcome of your case because you’re more attractive than the opposing counsel and in some private situations, a compelling presence can prevent people from making the informed choices to which they are entitled.

Sounds like last years U.S. presidential election…

Yes, and it would have nothing to do with any merit of your character or your arguments.

Then keep them with your character and arguments!!
its quite helpful to have a quality that attracts people to you.
Attraction is the first step towards relationships.

Possibly. You want to show the client that he won’t have to dig through all those books on his own because you’ve done the job for him.

Sounds fun for you!!!

I barely remember that girl. Really, lots of time has passed, I knew her for little time, didn’t have any significant emotional attachment.

oh well, at least you had a good game …and by good, I mean you lost…and then won cuz she let you…
I know…blunt

Informed choice > hasty choice.

Of course.

HOWEVER

Marriage = work + matching, WHERE work > matching

This means that picking a spouse and focusing on the work part can actually not be so stupid. But an informed choice has its obvious benefits.

For example, you should theoretically (reasonable theory) be better off launching a business already and dealing with the market than waiting for an opportunity and playing the field, even though there is a common theory that observing and waiting for the right moment is better than being rash. Especially if you can connect it with the virtue of temperance and patience.

In many cases, I believe long courtships result in temptation, while short ones may result in null marriages. I don’t want to answer the question which is better.

Well, to be honest, we’re already in a relationship, according to the girl’s sister. So we’ll just make sure we identify the 6 month time we will spend alone as the courting time, and the time we spend with others around (whils still getting to know each other well) as my current state.
So its not like I’m not making an informed decision.

That’s pretty much like summarising the qualities, making a list of pros and cons and a quick decision. It’s little more than evaluating an ad.

Well, we already know each other’s personalities…and we’re moving into knowing a bit more. And we haven’t even started courting yet.
I’d say that’s significantly different than reading/analyzing an ad.

Grass is greener on the other side. Though I imagine it would be possible to meet the right woman and know after a week. If I met what people call “the girl of your dreams” or “the soulmate” (I don’t subscribe to the soulmate theory, at least in its common understanding), I think I would know. Certainly, I could tell a person sharing my values and my interests. Most people feel to me like they are from a different culture. If I met someone who didn’t, that would be a clue.

And there is no value in pointless waiting.

So yes, I can imagine wanting to marry someone I had met 6 months before, but it would have to be a very special situation.

Indeed. I can understand that.

One thing though, in my situation, its not like I met her 6 months ago. I’ve known her for years now.

Just want to clarify

If you eliminate the risk of fornication and get yourself in an invalid marriage, that can spare you a mortal sin. You can therefore go through much pain, while avoiding mortal sin and thus not endangering your soul (without denying the fact we need grace for salvation, it’s not through observance of the law that we are saved), but wouldn’t it be better to think of a way in which your soul doesn’t get burdened with a mortal sin but you don’t get burdened with a high risk of invalid marriage?

Obviously, if you pick a well-informed Catholic, the odds of the marriage turning null should be minimal. Moreover, two Catholics should be able to have a functional marriage barring extreme factors (i.e. even if you didn’t know the woman at all, barring some extreme incompatibilities or immaturity or psychic problems or impediment).

Again, I’ve known her for a long time, and I don’t intend to get married without both of us being well informed. I am an honest person, and I would tell her my faults straight out. The more I think about it, the more I believe that 6 months of courtship, or so, and however long of engagement will be, (Not to mention the time between now and the courtship) is plenty of time to do things right.

Strictly speaking neither have I. Never had a meeting classified as a date except once, jokingly, with a then girlfriend (and it wasn’t a date really). But I like it this way because I don’t like the idea of using the word “date”, with its mating implications, with regard to a stranger. Being from a different culture may explain this. Basically, I don’t think it’s all that great to walk up to a stranger and offer a romantic meeting, nor do I think it’s proper to engage in romantic things with multiple people at the same time. And that’s what dating is to me. When it doesn’t cross the lines of friendship, it may be fine, however. And I will take a friend to a dance or a coffee. With, say, three ladies I potentially cared for “like that”, it would, by contrast, not feel very right, much in the direction of leading on. Knowledge and consent wouldn’t deal away with this.

Sounds right…but confusing

Hah, never heard that one yet.

Yeah, usualy its the “shark” jokes.
I think I can say that that one isn’t true

 

[chevalier]

Sounds like last years U.S. presidential election…

Awch. Definitely unintended, why possible. Let’s not discuss the particulars. People simply make their decisions without enough knowledge or determination if you present them with the compelling effect of trained persuasion or because of certain positive associations with your person, which you might be using for goals which are yours but not theirs. In mundane situations, you don’t flirt with the shopping assistant for a discount. In less mundane ones, you don’t use whatever social engineering you’ve learnt on a person whose heart is what you want to address.

Then keep them with your character and arguments!!

That is what should be done and again, on the one hand it’s not bad if you’re a good speaker, on the other hand a person trained in arguing can make many things look plausible that otherwise would not.

its quite helpful to have a quality that attracts people to you.
Attraction is the first step towards relationships.

Yes, it is. On the other hand, if you go by attraction and forget compatibility or honesty, disasters happen.

Sounds fun for you!!!

I roll my eyes at the standard devices lawyers use in advertising.

oh well, at least you had a good game …and by good, I mean you lost…and then won cuz she let you…
I know…blunt

Don’t really know, it was long ago. I think she lost interest in the game and stopped focusing.

Well, to be honest, we’re already in a relationship, according to the girl’s sister.

It is true that you can describe something as a relationship from a more objective point of view, even if the people affected would not say they are in one, but it’s generally hard to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t know he’s in a relationship with you.

So we’ll just make sure we identify the 6 month time we will spend alone as the courting time, and the time we spend with others around (whils still getting to know each other well) as my current state.
So its not like I’m not making an informed decision.

In a way, you might be making a more informed one than otherwise because chaperones do a wonderful thing for the clarity of mind. On the other hand, I would be pretty disappointed in a lack of ability to meet on a more private basis even with a simple friend.

Well, we already know each other’s personalities…and we’re moving into knowing a bit more. And we haven’t even started courting yet.

Right at this moment, she knows nothing and you aren’t allowed to tell her. It’s like two people each having an image, but not a confrontation with reality.

I’d say that’s significantly different than reading/analyzing an ad.

You have more information and yet…

Indeed. I can understand that.

One thing though, in my situation, its not like I met her 6 months ago. I’ve known her for years now.

Just want to clarify

Well, that clarifies things indeed.

Again, I’ve known her for a long time, and I don’t intend to get married without both of us being well informed. I am an honest person, and I would tell her my faults straight out. The more I think about it, the more I believe that 6 months of courtship, or so, and however long of engagement will be, (Not to mention the time between now and the courtship) is plenty of time to do things right.

Possibly, but I’m worried by the fast-trak policy and the ever-controlling designs and rules of her father.

Yeah, usualy its the “shark” jokes.
I think I can say that that one isn’t true

Hehe.

 

[Belgarion]

Awch. Definitely unintended, why possible. Let’s not discuss the particulars. People simply make their decisions without enough knowledge or determination if you present them with the compelling effect of trained persuasion or because of certain positive associations with your person, which you might be using for goals which are yours but not theirs. In mundane situations, you don’t flirt with the shopping assistant for a discount. In less mundane ones, you don’t use whatever social engineering you’ve learnt on a person whose heart is what you want to address.

Makes sense.
manipulation is very bad in relationships.

That is what should be done and again, on the one hand it’s not bad if you’re a good speaker, on the other hand a person trained in arguing can make many things look plausible that otherwise would not.

So again, you’re like a superhuman with super-persuasion skills. But you’re afraid to use your power, and feel that it could manipulate someone on its own. You know, fear what’s within you.
…yes…a comic book/movie analogy…I went there

Yes, it is. On the other hand, if you go by attraction and forget compatibility or honesty, disasters happen.

Of course, but that’s why I know you won’t forget it

I roll my eyes at the standard devices lawyers use in advertising.

I’ve seen some better ones, actually…like operas…

Don’t really know, it was long ago. I think she lost interest in the game and stopped focusing.

OH NO!! you BORED her!!!

It is true that you can describe something as a relationship from a more objective point of view, even if the people affected would not say they are in one, but it’s generally hard to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t know he’s in a relationship with you.

Well, consider also that its her sister…not some friend who only knows a little bit of it all.
This is the sister that knew my name before I was introduced.
And you may recall what I told you in my last PM…But she knows plenty about what’s going on
I’ll answer the “not knowing” part in a bit

In a way, you might be making a more informed one than otherwise because chaperones do a wonderful thing for the clarity of mind. On the other hand, I would be pretty disappointed in a lack of ability to meet on a more private basis even with a simple friend.

Amen to the last part there.
Though you’re right about the rest, too.
For the most part…many times, I want to ask something entirelly acceptable, but because her siblings are RIGHT THERE, paying attention to everything we say,I get nervous and don’t say anything.

Right at this moment, she knows nothing and you aren’t allowed to tell her. It’s like two people each having an image, but not a confrontation with reality.

Ah, but she does know something.
Come on, Chev!
Its quite obvious, and confirmed.
This is were my deductive skills come in …even though I may not need them…
First, she got upset when I stopped talking to her. She was clearly concerned that I had been scared off by her (or her father’s) “I’m not ready”.
Secondly, you may recall one instance that I related where her sisters left me and her outside ALONE.
A friend of mine overheard the brief conversation inside as the sisters asked each other “Why did you leave her” and the father hurried outside to us. He gave all of them a brief talking-to as I went to go tie my little brother’s shoes. I KNOW that she knows that she’s not supposed to be alone with me. Trust me, she knows the rest, too.

And lastly…(And probably the least convincing) is that her father has basically said she knows. And even if he didn’t say it straight out, he has insinuated it quite a bit

You have more information and yet…

Well, that clarifies things indeed.

Well of course it DOESNT…I know it was obvious just from the length of this thread…But you know what I mean

Possibly, but I’m worried by the fast-trak policy and the ever-controlling designs and rules of her father.

Think about the advantages of being ready to get married when things start up more.
The really important stuff will be put into those months. We’ve already had plenty of time to get to know each other in a certain way. Its kinda like finishing a test ahead of time, so you don’t have to worry about it later.
Also, in regards to her father’s “ever-controlling designs”
He can’t do anything.
Because, being ready, I could say: “Hey, cut it out. I could get married to her right now.”
He wouldn’t be able to stop us, so that’d be some good leverage to use if he ever forgot that fact. I respect him, but I am not THAT passive.