When do you distinguish between mythology and religion?

  • Thread starter Thread starter sidetrack
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sorry, but talking snakes, angels interacting with people, races of giants, ten plagues, the parting of the red sea, virgin births, water into wine, and death and resurrection would be considered “fantastical” by virtually anyone.

When a text contains fantastical elements, I do not start from the premise that it is true, and neither should anyone else.

Instead, I try to figure out what parts of it may have some basis in reality, if any, and I discard the rest.
Virtually anyone? You have to remember that from the beginning, the words of scripture have been interpreted in other than literal terms, both by Jews and Christians. By literal, of course, I mean what is present to the senses. But of course, our senses are conditioned to see what they literally see. A hundred years ago, religious visions, cures were explained largely as "hysteria,"or delusions. This is not long after the invention of physical psychology. Emil Zola, a famous skeptic, was allowed to share in a file kept at Lourdes of a miraculous cure. A man had lost much of his shinbone, and there x-ray proof of the fact. There was also x-ray proof that after coming to Lourdes, that the shinbone had been instantaneosly cured. Zola claimed to be impressed, and said he would write about the case. He never did. Rather his next work was another attack on religion. Of course he felt that he had been tricked. Miracles were impossible. But that is a conclusion of ideologues like Voltaire.not scientists. One sees what one expects to see.
 
As interesting as this thread has turned out I think that for the most part you guys all lost sight of my original question. Even though I mentioned that one part about a wikipedia article about “Christian mythology” and opinion of the Biblical account of the Garden of Eve my main concern was telling apart mythology from religion with non-Abrahamic religions such as in Hinduism, Shintoism,Taoism,Buddhism and in particular with Native beliefs from around the world which (even though they contain elements such as animism) are disregarded as mythology at times while still being **living **belief systems still followed to extents some more full then others but still seems to muddled a line between religion and mythology to the average person IMO.

:)Boy if I had a penny for every time my threads go off topic and dont answer the questions I was originally curious about.

By the way

@ NonServiam

“**If you think that a complicated being like a god can just “always exist,” then you are admitting that complicated things can “always exist,” **which means that the initial premise from which this argument began (i.e. “complicated things require an explanation”) is not true, and you have thereby defeated your own argument.

In other words, when you say that “God just always exists!” you’re saying, in effect, that complex things don’t need an explanation…but that was the reason you postulated a god to begin with, as an explanation for the complex universe. “

Please keep in mind that this complicated thing we are talking about (God) is omnipotent.
 
Considering there were no human witnesses to creation of evolution prior to man…there is a growing number of Catholics who are looking at the story of Adam and Eve…that the ancient land of Ur where Abraham came from also had similar first man and woman story…as well as the story of Noah…

That these are human myths attempting to describe the beginning of human events and eschatology – where we came from, the meaning of good and evil, and the question of the value of human existance and where it ends…myths that are describing some basic truths about God and us.
 
Think about it: the ancient Greeks literally believed in their gods and the stories surrounding them. It was religion for them.
It was quite a bit more complicated than this. Some of the Greeks believed some of the stories about some of the Gods.

This trend proceeded as time went on. No one was supposed to believe the Metamorphoses as literally true. That’s what got Ovid banished!

The difference between myth and religion is not merely subjective, not merely the result of people no longer believing that something is true. That this is true can be seen by operation of a simple comparison: few people believe that the solar system is geocentric, but geocentricism is not a myth. Why? Because it was held to be literally true, not merely expressive of a truth.

A myth, on the other hand, is something that was never true, but expresses a truth. The origins of sociology are replete with myths regarding Nordic superiority. The myths were never true, but they expressed the fond beliefs of the people who espoused them, and reflected the fact that for a time, it seemed that to some North Europeans they had established some kind of dominance over most everyone else.

Between these two classes of story, Adam and Eve fall into the first. The story is unquestionably old, and none can say who exactly put it in its present form. Legend says it was written by Moses, but who told it to him? That we do not know. But the antiquity of an observation does not make it false. Everyone who knew Caesar is dead. Most people who knew Ceasar Chavez will soon be dead. This does not make the fact of either leader less true, just harder to verify.
As far as Christianity goes, it seems that believers have a difficult time deciding exactly what’s literal and what’s symbolic and – most importantly – the criteria for distinguishing them.
If you are a Catholic, then there is no difficulty. The Bible can be taken as literally true, unless itself states otherwise, like in the parables of Christ.
If you’re willing to grant that the Garden of Eden story is symbolic, then where (and how?) do you draw the line between the symbolic and the literal?
This is the kind of fuzzy thinking that, sadly, plagues modern men and women. Y = mx plus b is symbolic. Does that make it any less literal given the right variables? Of course not.

The story of Adam and Eve is suggestive, even, one might say, evocative, if he were not averse to risking a pun. Why must it therefore be objectively false?

Take another, more pertinent example. If a person claims to be an atheist, and therefore is symbolic of the tiresome tendency of modern people to reject miracles solely because they lie outside of their rather circumscribed experiences, does that automatically make the claim false? Must I insist that the person, being symbolic, is a myth, a mere figment, even though he stands in front of me gesticulating wildly, insisting on his materiality? Must I sneer and say “As to your existence, I am an atheist, because you are symbol?”
 
The court system is the place to find how unreliable eyewitness testimony is.
The system of trial is really closer to a myth than the Bible. The Bible purports to be completely true.

What happens in a courtroom during a trial purports to achieve a just result. At least half the witnesses know that what is said is not true. The lawyers and the judges know that the facts are being revealed in a highly selective way that has almost nothing to do do with objective truth, and everything to do with efficiency. A trial is a symbol of truth, and truth is itself symbolic in the courtroom.

It’s rather depressing that men and women go to the scaffold as a result of this kind of playacting.

Now you know why common people detest lawyers!
 
A myth, on the other hand, is something that was never true, but expresses a truth.
I have no problem with accepting that myths reveal truths through symbol – if you read Joseph Campbell, you’ll see how the myths of all cultures reveal a lot of the same universal truths about human existence – but that doesn’t change the fact that a good chunk of what we call “myth” was, at one time by at least one group of people, literally believed to be true.
This is the kind of fuzzy thinking that, sadly, plagues modern men and women. Y = mx plus b is symbolic. Does that make it any less literal given the right variables? Of course not.
Y=mx + b is a formula. We can use the formula to represent a line that we draw, but the formula is not a literal line.

So we might say that the Adam and Eve story represents something – like, say, a sense possessed by the Ancient Hebrews and some of their spiritual descendants that mankind is in some sense “exiled” from the source of creation and needs to find a way back to god. That sense exists in those people’s heads, and it’s a real feeling that they have. But the thing that symbolizes that sense – the events of the Adam and Eve story – didn’t actually happen (in the sense of “actually happen” we mean when we say that it actually happened that I went to the store yesterday and bought some milk).
The story of Adam and Eve is suggestive, even, one might say, evocative, if he were not averse to risking a pun. Why must it therefore be objectively false?
Because it didn’t happen. Someone might take it to symbolize or be representative of a feeling or idea, but the events reported in the story didn’t happen.

I’m mildly surprised I have to explain this in such detail.
 
…Now you know why common people detest lawyers!
😃 Funny, given your profession.

I think this “eye witnesses are unreliable” simply reveals a bias for forensic evidence. Twenty people can witness a shooting and people who have watched too much CSI will say: “There was no DNA on the handgun - eyewitnesses are unreliable.”
 
When a text contains fantastical elements, I do not start from the premise that it is true, and neither should anyone else.

Instead, I try to figure out what parts of it may have some basis in reality, if any, and I discard the rest.
Here, you and I agree completely. The following illustrates.

Quite some time ago, I realized that there was a point beyond which I could not remember. How could possibly be that I would come from nothing, develope consciousness, and yet, my reality stays completely enclosed within whatever perceives it. Astonishingly, I given to understand that that one day, inexorably, this consciousness would disappear as as if it had never been.

This was fantastical, in the most basic sense of the word.

Suffice to say, I reached the exact conclusion you did.
 
😃 Funny, given your profession.

I think this “eye witnesses are unreliable” simply reveals a bias for forensic evidence. Twenty people can witness a shooting and people who have watched too much CSI will say: “There was no DNA on the handgun - eyewitnesses are unreliable.”
Ah, forensic evidence.

Shibboleth!

Read what happened in the Duke University rape case.

Easiest stuff in the world to fake.

Why do you figure so many states only pay for the prosecutions expert, but won’t pay for the indigent defendant’s expert? 😉
 
Suffice to say, I reached the exact conclusion you did.
Sure, I respect someone who doesn’t believe that his consciousness will disappear upon his death – just as long as he’s intellectually honest enough to also not believe that his consciousness will endure after death.

The position that “we don’t have enough evidence to say one way or the other” is a fine one, in theory, but I find all too frequently that the people who claim this position really just want to leave the door open for their hopes that they will survive death.

In other words, the “I’m an agnostic” position is too frequently used by people who really do believe, on faith, that they are going to endure but who lack the courage and conviction to stand up and say that that’s what they’re doing.
 
QUOTE=NonServiam;8406970]Ithat doesn’t change the fact that a good chunk of what we call “myth” was, at one time by at least one group of people, literally believed to be true.
The fact? What fact? Whose fact?
Y=mx + b is a formula. We can use the formula to represent a line that we draw, but the formula is not a literal line.
A literal line? No such thing.
So we might say that the Adam and Eve story represents something – like, say, a sense possessed by the Ancient Hebrews and some of their spiritual descendants that mankind is in some sense “exiled” from the source of creation and needs to find a way back to god. That sense exists in those people’s heads, and it’s a real feeling that they have. But the thing that symbolizes that sense – the events of the Adam and Eve story – didn’t actually happen (in the sense of “actually happen” we mean when we say that it actually happened that I went to the store yesterday and bought some milk).
Wait a moment: you’re changing the rules. I read several posts where you insisted on applying Occam’s razor. Now you’re advocating growing a literal beard just because we’re talking about Adam and his long suffering wife.
Because it didn’t happen. Someone might take it to symbolize or be representative of a feeling or idea, but the events reported in the story didn’t happen.
Being an atheist, I’m tempted to ask you whether the devil himself told you so. But I’ll refrain.
I’m mildly surprised I have to explain this in such detail.
Well, that just means that our conversation must not be happening, right?
 
Sure, I respect someone who doesn’t believe that his consciousness will disappear upon his death – just as long as he’s intellectually honest enough to also not believe that his consciousness will endure after death.
It’s not the death part I didn’t believe in. I think you misread me.
And I thought, at long last, I had found someone who might understand. 😦

Got to run to a meeting. I’ll catch your ripostes later. Have a great evening and thanks for the fun chat!!!😃
 
Out with it: do you believe that the Adam and Eve story actually happened, in the same sense that it “actually happened” that I went to the store the other day?
 
You’re making it more complex by postulating a complex being.
How so? You are postulating that.
Now, we need to explain the gleegrox grismald. What accounts for that complex creature? And if the answer is, “Oh, gleegrox grismalds have just always existed,” then you’re admitting that complexity can just always exist, which invalidates the premise from which the argument began.
Oh, I see you are comparing gleegrox grismalds to God in your analogy. Okay if they are god then the must be all things at all times – simple yet complex. So you are finally starting to see my point. I knew you would be coming around.
I’m not quite sure how to explain this any more clearly. If you are still having a problem grasping it, I would suggest taking a break for a few hours and then coming back and reading my posts again with a fresh mind.
Okay. I took a few hours. You are still wrong. Is it possible that you are confusing your argument? You are arguing that commplexity and God are mutual exclusive? That doesn’t make any sense as god is creator of all things — simple and complex. Besides you seem to be misunderstanding mine and other’s post.
You’re confusing improbable with impossible here
.

Something with an infinite improbability would approach impossibilty would it not. Kind of lke the existence of the universe — no?
It helps me see the gaping flaw in what you’re trying to argue, yes.
Obviously not if you still don’t understand what I am saying. I can’t be anymore clearer. Try following the advice you gave me and take a step back. Reread the posts. Maybe you will finally see the flaws in your arguments.
If you think that a complicated being like a god can just “always exist,” then you are admitting that complicated things can “always exist,” which means that the initial premise from which this argument began (i.e. “complicated things require an explanation”) is not true, and you have thereby defeated your own argument.
See now you are basing what is complex and not and determining what the nature of god is based on your own finite understanding. Seems like you are making things more complex. The bible says you are wrong. You should try reading it.
In other words, when you say that “God just always exists!” you’re saying, in effect, that complex things don’t need an explanation…
No. That is what you are trying to tell me that I am saying. I have been saying differently from the beginning. You just don’t want to hear it.
but that was the reason you postulated a god to begin with, as an explanation for the complex universe. Now you’re admitting that that explanation wasn’t necessary to begin with, so the whole thing is pointless.
No. You have it backwards. You postulated their is no God because we can have a complex universe. I have argued God is all things at all times. You don’t want to hear that.
Unless you can substantively address these points, you’re just going to dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole here./
Done and done. Actually, I have dug my way out and am standing on the seashore with the Gleegrox Grismalds building our simple yet oh so complex sandcastles. You should join us. Always room for you as well.
 
If god is all things at all times then he is also a simple being.
An intelligent being is, by definition, complex.

If you don’t want to have a serious discussion and you just want to declare yourself the winner because you say so, then good luck with that.
 
“Religion” is what I believe in.

“Mythology” is what you believe in.
I was going to say this, but you beat me to it. 😃

I personally view “mythology” as a collection of stories or the study of such stories (after all, the term mythos simply means “story”). The definition of “religion” took up the first half hour of every religious studies course I took in university, but most definitions were along the lines of “a system of beliefs and rituals.” In that sense, mythology informs religion, but I think the term ruffles a lot of feathers because it assumes that a story “isn’t true”. I think that’s a problem for someone who takes the stories literally, but I can accept that myths contain truths without imagining that the story is an actual historic event.
 
I was going to say this, but you beat me to it. 😃

I personally view “mythology” as a collection of stories or the study of such stories (after all, the term mythos simply means “story”). The definition of “religion” took up the first half hour of every religious studies course I took in university, but most definitions were along the lines of “a system of beliefs and rituals.”
How is that different from science (belief in natural causes; the ritual of the scientific methods; etc.)?
 
An intelligent being is, by definition, complex.

If you don’t want to have a serious discussion and you just want to declare yourself the winner because you say so, then good luck with that.
See here you go again, ignoring what I have said. I said He is all things at all times. That includes being simple and complex. I have never declared myself a winner. This is you again trying to put words in others mouths. Reread the posts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top