When does a human living being attain legal rights to life?

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They have a right to defend what is understood to be “persons”, not fetuses.
otherwise the state is invisibly ignorant of all religious or philosophical notions of human nature.
This should include the philosophical notion of distinguishing between human and person. Where is this distinction legally defined? What is the difference between humanity and personhood? Until this distinction is prescribed, those who want to outlaw abortion do have legal room to maneuver that the unborn do indeed deserve the protection of the law.

But to use your terms, there are pragmatic reasons to define fetuses as persons. 1) To protect and invest in the future generation. 2) To prevent the (debatable) psychological harm to women and families caused by abortions. 3) To provide a greater demand for pregnancy and baby related services and goods. Need I go on?
 
In terms of the law, this does not matter. The law can be altered to declare that human life begins at conception. It has already happened in some cases where it is possible to be charged with murder for killing a pregnant woman. later.
That’s because the context has changed. We are no-longer talking about a fetus; rather we are now talking about the rights of the mother. The child has not been defined as a personal being in reference to itself but rather in reference to the mothers will, who has been killed. It is the mother who has the right to define whether or not she is carrying a baby or an unwanted fetus. If she decides that she wants to give birth to a person, then the fetus is protected through the mothers legal pragmatic rights as a citizen; not its own. In this case, in the absence of the mothers will, it is simply assumed that she intended to take the development of the fetus to full term; and therefore it is defined as murder relative to that particular context.

As for common-sense, that is just an assertion on your part. You cannot provide any circular legal argument that can determine or make evident that a fetus has a personal soul with intrinsic objective moral value given by God. You cannot do this any-more than you could show that gay marriage should be illegal or that intelligent design should be taught in science classes. The problem is not atheist judges, but the secularisation of the legal system, which is a direct and inevitable result of the split between Church and State - Religion and circular politics.

Its quite sad to me that you as a Christian would say that evangelism can come later!!

This is the problem with Christians in America; they have lost sight of what truly matters (evangelism) and you have instead turned religious concerns into a legal war that you cannot possibly win.

It is not self-evident that a fetus is a person in a legal context.

God will take care of those innocent unborn children.
 
That’s because the context is changed. The child has not been defined as a personal being in reference to itself but rather in reference to the mothers will, who has been killed. It is the mother who has the right to define whether or not she is carrying a baby or an unwanted fetus. If she decides that she wants to give birth to a person, then the fetus is protected through the mothers legal rights as a citizen; not its own. In this case, in the absence of the mothers will, it is simply assumed that she intended to take the development of the fetus to full term; and therefore it is defined as murder relative to that particular context.

As for common-sense, that is just an assertion on your part. You cannot provide any circular legal argument that can determine or make evident that a fetus has a personal soul with intrinsic objective moral value given by God. You cannot do this any-more than you could show that gay marriage is wrong or that intelligent design should be taught in science classes. The problem is not atheism, but the secularisation of the legal system, which is a direct and inevitable result of the split between Church and State - Religion and circular politics.

Its quite sad to me that you as a Christian would say that evangelism can come later!!

This is the problem with Christians in America; they have lost sight of what truly matters (evangelism) and you have instead turned religious concerns into a legal war that you cannot possibly win.

It is not self-evident that a fetus is a person in a legal context.

God will take care of those innocent unborn children.
The legal system does not need to recognize people as having a personal soul created by God in order to prohibit the murder of them. Thus, the argument for a fetus being a person does not need to try to prove such a fact because the law does not require it. People have been protected under the law from murder without the law recognizing an immortal soul in every one of them. It isn’t necessary.

As to evangelism, when millions of people are being murdered, stopping the killing must come first.
 
The legal system does not need to recognize people as having a personal soul created by God in order to prohibit the murder of them. .
Correct. The legal system protects people who they perceive as having the characteristics of a person such as emotions, a mind, and a will; as commonly attributed to people.

These things are not evidently present in a fetus; thus these things are not perceived as being destroyed when a fetus is aborted…
 
As to evangelism, when millions of people are being murdered, stopping the killing must come first.
According to you , millions of people are being murdered; but this hasn’t been made evident to the circular courts, and there is no point pretending that it has.
 
As to evangelism, when millions of people are being murdered, stopping the killing must come first.
When a legal battle is unwinnable because of the nature of the legal system, “stopping the killing” just becomes an excuse to do nothing in the way of evangelising society.

There is no substitute for evangelism in this context. Evangelisation gets to the root of the problem. If people learn that abortion is wrong, then they will not go to abortion clinics.

Its your responsibility as a Christian to teach people why its wrong. Its not the responsibility of the legal system.
 
When a legal battle is unwinnable because of the nature of the legal system, “stopping the killing” just becomes an excuse to do nothing in the way of evangelising society.

There is no substitute for evangelism in this context. Evangelisation gets to the root of the problem. If people learn that abortion is wrong, then they will not go to abortion clinics.

Its your responsibility as a Christian to teach people why its wrong. Its not the responsibility of the legal system.
Christians also have the responsibility to defend the powerless and those who don’t have a voice. So to suggest we stop trying to win the legal right to life for these fetuses is suggesting that we neglect our responsibility. Of course, you are right that this should in no way replace evangelism or the battle for the culture. They should be seen as two different responsibilities.
 
Christians also have the responsibility to defend the powerless and those who don’t have a voice. So to suggest we stop trying to win the legal right to life for these fetuses is suggesting that we neglect our responsibility. Of course, you are right that this should in no way replace evangelism or the battle for the culture. They should be seen as two different responsibilities.
You obviously think that the legal battle can be won. Believe me, I have no time to waste trying to convince you otherwise. Its my responsibility to fight for moral truth. There is no such thing as legal rights for fetuses. and as long as there is a split between church and state there never will be…
 
You obviously think that the legal battle can be won. Believe me, I have no time to waste trying to convince you otherwise.
It matters not if the battle can be won or not. When the powerless and voiceless are being persecuted, the battle must be fought without regard for the chance of success.
 
It matters not if the battle can be won or not. When the powerless and voiceless are being persecuted, the battle must be fought without regard for the chance of success.
There is no battle. Wasting resources on a fools errand is just as irresponsible and immoral.
 
If you are determined to see trying to legally protect the rights of fetuses as a fool’s errand, then I have not the means nor the desire to convince you otherwise.
 
If you are determined to see trying to legally protect the rights of fetuses as a fool’s errand, then I have not the means nor the desire to convince you otherwise.
Its not a matter of determination. Its a matter of understanding how things work, and knowing how better to spend resources. Wasting money, time or resources on something, when that can be put to good use elsewhere is wrong; and continuously saying that we are doing it to save people won’t change that fact, especially if it is evident that you will save a whole lot more people by using your resources to educate people.
 
Its not a matter of determination. Its a matter of understanding how things work, and knowing how better to spend resources. Wasting money, time or resources on something, when that can be put to good use elsewhere is wrong; and continuously saying that we are doing it to save people won’t change that fact, especially if it is evident that you will save a whole lot more people by using your resources to educate people.
So, you’re saying that in a hypothetical situation, if an innocent person were to be sentenced to death for the horrid deeds of another, and many people knew he was innocent, but ignorant people thought he was guilty and wanted no hear of him being innocent, you feel that money would be wasted in trying to prove him innocent and to just let him die? (And yes, this is an almost equal situation, because an unborn fetus is a human that has done no wrong [innocent] and is being put to death for reasons that are not justified).
 
So, you’re saying that in a hypothetical situation, if an innocent person were to be sentenced to death for the horrid deeds of another…
I don’t think that’s what he is saying. And that kind of fails at the gate since a zygote/fetus hasn’t yet been granted personhood. That’s not an expression of my opinion as much as it is an expression of the mechanics of the law (at least the law in the USA. It is different in some other countries).
 
I don’t think that’s what he is saying. And that kind of fails at the gate since a zygote/fetus hasn’t yet been granted personhood. That’s not an expression of my opinion as much as it is an expression of the mechanics of the law (at least the law in the USA. It is different in some other countries).
So your saying it’s completely ethical and moral to kill a human that is not considered a person (by your definition)?
 
So your saying it’s completely ethical and moral to kill a human that is not considered a person (by your definition)?
I’ve not said anything about ethics or morals or even my view on embryos, zygotes, sperm, and eggs. I have spoken on law and person-hood (which doesn’t mean the same thing as human, as historically not all humans have been granted person-hood status, see the 14th Amendment of the USA). I think you may be interpreting some of what has been typed in a manner other than what is meant.

There’s been debates on granting person-hood status to non-humans (such as primates and dolphins). Corporations and other social constructs can be granted person-hood status, and so on. I think there may be some confusion on the person-hood concept which is causing a misunderstanding in our communication.
 
So, you’re saying that in a hypothetical situation, if an innocent person were to be sentenced to death for the horrid deeds of another, and many people knew he was innocent, but ignorant people thought he was guilty and wanted no hear of him being innocent, you feel that money would be wasted in trying to prove him innocent and to just let him die? (And yes, this is an almost equal situation, because an unborn fetus is a human that has done no wrong [innocent] and is being put to death for reasons that are not justified).
This is a strawman. Whether or not a person is guilty has got nothing to do with the question of whether or not a fetus is a person and if such can be demonstrated in the context of legal definitions. Legally speaking the courts cannot stop people from having abortions simply because there is no legal argument in a secular court that can demonstrate the person-hood of a fetus according to secular definitions of what a person is.

That will never change, so long as we are speaking about secular law.
 
…]Legally speaking the courts cannot stop people from
having abortions simply because there is no legal argument in a secular court that can demonstrate the person-hood of a fetus according to secular definitions of what a person is…]
Given that in layman’s terms there’s not a difference in the meaning of “person[hood]” and “human” I get the feeling that most of laymen’s discussions on the topics start off with a misunderstanding of what is being discussed. In all honesty I probably would not have the minute amount of legal comprehension that I do had my sister not majored in political science and a close friend not gotten a law degree (they often bring up legal topics and explanations in their discussions).
 
When it is a human, at conception. At this time it has unique DNA, no one else has that identical DNA in the world.
 
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