When does a marriage end?

[StephieNorthCo]

When my mom died, after a couple years, my dad remarried. He was not the type who could do well alone. When she died, after a couple years after her death, my dad became friends with yet another lady. Although they remained companions, they never married. I think he was afraid he’d lose her too.

My spouse has passed away, but I’m content to concentrate on Jesus. Different people have different personalities, and different paths to God’s kingdom.

 

[Whitney]

Yes my understanding from my priest is that in orthodoxy marriage does not end with the death of your spouse, does anyone know if the various Eastern Catholic Churches hold this belief? I assume that they do, although I don’t know.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You would get better answers asking in Eastern Catholicism subforum.

 

[Whitney]

That’s probably true! I started coming to this forum before I became orthodox and I just love it so much I don’t want to leave

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yeah, a lot of whether people remarry has to do with life skills and emotional skills. Some people just have trouble getting along without a spouse. Others are more autonomous.

One thing that really turns me off is the number of women my age throwing themselves at any available man (often with sex involved also). I have better things to do with my time than waste it chasing men and competing for men. I wasted enough time on that in my 20s and have zero desire to waste any more.

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

Yes my understanding from my priest is that in orthodoxy marriage does not end with the death of your spouse

I never heard that in all my years of living the Orthodox Faith.

A penitential wedding service in the Orthodox Church is for an Orthodox Christian who obtained an Ecclesiastical Divorce and is remarrying while their former spouse is still very much Alive. It’s penitential because it’s a sin to marry another while your spouse is still alive, but it is permitted pastorally by the Orthodox Church due to “human weakness”. Within Orthodoxy, Marriage is permitted a maximum of 3 times regardless of the cause of the marriage ending… except with priests & deacons who are not permitted to remarry ever. Ordained Clergy can’t date or marry, not even if their children are young.

 

[Melissa]

My parents are hoping to die at the same time (over 50 years of marriage, both are in fine health).

 

[Elf01]

Yeah, a lot of whether people remarry has to do with life skills and emotional skills. Some people just have trouble getting along without a spouse.

Personally I think that’s a very bad reason to marry.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Actually, one reason God designed marriage because he saw Adam was not good alone.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It’s a large reason why many people marry. People don’t always marry for the greatest most God-centric reasons. I probably didn’t myself. But even such marriages can be a good thing and often they grow into more in time.

 

[dochawk]

I have never heard of a penitential marriage . It sounds daft to me .

It sounds like a confused mixing of East and West.

In the East, parts of the ceremony are replaced with penitential rather than joyful readings, etc., but the marriage itself is not.

Historically, this is the case whether death or divorce ended the old marriage.

There is a definite trend, both EC and EO, towards using the regular, unmodified crowning ceremony for second marriages, but it’s far from a universal change.

Yes. Considering EO accepts divorces

No, they don’t, although this is commonly repeated, particularly on this forum. Saying that they “accept” or “allow” divorce is as misleading as saying the same about the RCC.

Their handling of it is more pastoral in nature, and at times discretion is used to permit another marriage, but there is very much no general rule allowing remarriage.

“can” is far too strong a term. There have been a handful of cases, with fingers left, in which special permission was granted, at least one each for both EC and EO.

Different people have different personalities, and different paths to God’s kingdom.

I’m reasonably certain that I’d be a basket case on my own if something happened to any wife (which is why, in fact, I turned down overtures about the diaconate!).

Within Orthodoxy, Marriage is permitted a maximum of 3 times regardless of the cause of the marriage ending…

And that’s a hard 3 with no exceptions. To the point that an emperor was deposed for attempting a 4th after being widowed three times . ., ,

Ordained Clergy can’t date or marry, not even if their children are young.

That’s the general rule, but there are very rare exceptions. A couple more are the Russian Orthodox in recent times allowing Roman Catholic priests who convert as priests to marry on the grounds that they had been “wrongfully denied” the opportunity to do so before ordination (I think that the ROC will now ordain unmarked men outside of the monastery, but until recently, the unmarried state was a bar), and the RCC in the US has apparently granted significant numbers of dispensations for widowed deacons to marry again.

hawk

 

[Mary888]

Yes. Considering EO accepts divorces

Ok yes. The teaching that I received is that EO allows 3 remarriages even though the previous spouses in case of remarriage will still be judged as spouses for the stated case at the final Judgement.
It is funny that this (to me) sounds like lawyerly (legalistic) approach to theology from the part of my own EO while at the same time the RC is “accused”, or criticised, for being too legalistic in most EO circles.
I conclude with - have as many as 4 spouses if you need/will, but you will be judged for 4 spouses match in the end and if you helped them, increased their faith etc. Does this not contradict one woman-one man match as said by Jesus Christ?

 

[dochawk]

I’m not the one to defend it in general, but even cardinals have noted that it’s analogous to RCC annulments.

And, again, it doesn’t simply “allow” the new marriage. It’s akin to what Rome calls “dispensation”, and is granted or not in each individual case.

The first is practically automatic outside of divorce, but evaluated similarly (but certainly not identically) to nullification proceedings.

The second (for a third marriage) is considered and sometimes granted.

Your count is off by one; there is never a third permission (fourth marriage), as the above-mentioned emperor found to his dismay . . .

Anyway, it’s the opposite end of “legalistic.” In broad terms, the Western approach to sin and our sinful state is judicial, while the Eastern is medical (although both certainly have elements in the other).

It’s really a qualitative determination of what will most benefit the potential salvation of the sinner in question, whether the issue be another marriage or just about anything else . . .

 

[JW55]

Off subject somewhat, but regarding divorce even though Eastern Catholic worship in the same manner as Orthodox and adhere to most of the same teachings , an Eastern Catholic divorce would not allow for a 2nd or 3rd marriage as in Orthodoxy. They would have to obtain An annulment to remarry, same as in the western church. Correct me if this is in error.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

“Till death do you part”…I think that sums it up.

 

[Vico]

…
I struggle with the view that marriage after a spouse’s death could be sinful and that the remarriage ceremony is a penitential one. What are your views on this?

There was a commission to study marriage between the Orthodox and Catholic and this was said:

Our churches have expressed their conviction concerning the enduring nature of Christian marriage in diverse ways. In the canonical discipline of the Orthodox Church, for example, perpetual monogamy is upheld as the norm of marriage, so that those entering upon a second or subsequent marriage are subject to penance even in the case of widows and widowers. In the Roman Catholic Church the enduring nature of marriage has been emphasized especially in the absolute prohibition of divorce. …

While it true that the Roman Catholic Church does not grant dissolution of the bond of a consummated sacramental marriage, it remains a question among theologians whether this is founded on a prudential judgment or on the Church’s perception that it lacks the power to dissolve such a bond."

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...s/ecumenical/orthodox_teaching_remarriage.cfm

 

[Tis_Bearself]

While it true that the Roman Catholic Church does not grant dissolution of the bond of a consummated sacramental marriage,

I think it’s important to note here that the commission was writing for a theological audience here and that this statement refers to the Roman Catholic Church granting a “dissolution” for two civilly divorced spouses who are both still alive , which was not the OP’s question (this thread has veered from the OP’s question). The Roman Catholic Church doesn’t grant such dissolutions of a marriage for two living spouses. The annulment that it does grant is a statement that for some reason no marriage actually took place, not a dissolving of a marriage that did take place.

The Roman Catholic Church does NOT have to grant any dissolution of any bond in a case where one spouse is dead. The marriage, for Roman Catholic Church purposes, is intended to only last as long as earthly life, and ends with death, as the marriage vows say, “Till death do us part.” In the Roman Catholic church, there is NO ongoing marital bond between the living and dead spouses, and NO penitential aspect to a second marriage for the spouse who is still alive. NONE.

I am making this very clear for the benefit of somebody who just stumbles onto this thread and might be confused reading an excerpt fro a bishop’s commission studying the differences in marriage between Orthodox and Catholic.

 

[Vico]

…this statement refers to the Roman Catholic Church granting a “dissolution” for two civilly divorced spouses who are both still alive
…

It is about these canons which pertain to dissolution CIC:

1141 A marriage that is ratum et consummatum can be dissolved by no human power and by no cause, except death.
1142 For a just cause, the Roman Pontiff can dissolve a non-consummated marriage between baptized persons or between a baptized party and a non-baptized party at the request of both parties or of one of them, even if the other party is unwilling.

 

[Dante221]

" …I love thee with the breath,
Smiles , tears of all my life : and if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death."

Elizabeth Barrett Browning

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Right. I think the “except death” clears up any confusion.