When does an anti-Catholic/anti-God person become a bigot?

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Can we call someone like Christopher Hitchens a bigot and be right about it? He uses non sequiturs and smear tactics; ad hominem and special pleading; insinuation and belligerence all to paint religious believers as deluded, evil, scum, etc. I think this is bigotry. Am I wrong?
 
Can we call someone like Christopher Hitchens a bigot and be right about it? He uses non sequiturs and smear tactics; ad hominem and special pleading; insinuation and belligerence all to paint religious believers as deluded, evil, scum, etc. I think this is bigotry. Am I wrong?
Depends on your definition, I guess. If you look at the definitions of he word ‘bigot’, a word the emergences from them is “intolerant”, alongside “prejudice”. Perhaps it’s an “American thing”, but my impression is that the term “bigot” carries that connotation of intolerance; the support of Jim Crow laws in the South, for example, wasn’t just prejudiced, but a “bigot” in the sense that the prejudice was compounded by intolerance. Having black skin wasn’t just something one had an opinion on, but one which was used to support official sanction; black people could not sit at the lunch counter, or had to sit at the back of the bus, etc.

I think Hitchens’ animus is not in dispute, although in admiring his writing and much of his ideas for a long time, I think I’d say Hitchens is scrupulous about going after ideas as ideas, and people only as they become sufficiently known as people by their public actions to yield grounds for judgment (here I’m thinking of his harsh treatment of Jerry Falwell). If you read people who’ve dealt with Hitchens, he’s uniformly regarded as warm and polite, generous and genial, even and especially to those with whom he disagrees (here I am thinking of the relationship Hitchens developed with Douglas Wilson when they went on “debate tour” together).

Hitchens is not a bigot in the sense of the Southern racist, and not just because his grievances are (usually) not about race; he doesn’t want to censor his opponents, but just to scold them, or to use them as a handy foil for pointing them at good things.

Maybe that’s too picky a definition of “bigot”, but I reserve the word for those who would use their animus and ideological grievances to effect actual sanctions or punishments on their opponents. Voting for a ban on gay marriage is wrong headed and prejudiced and unethical, etc. but it goes beyond that into bigotry, because it is the active support for state enforcement of inequality under the law, the abridgment of the rights of other Americans by use of American law.

But that person’s neighbor, even though he be even more vehemently opposed to gay marriage and angry at homosexuals for their choices, offended at their sin, etc., but who even so respects their freedom and equality (and thus wouldn’t presume to vote for such a law as the ban), I would not call that person a “bigot”. The second person could be much more vicious and antagonistic, and use every fallacy that Hitchens hadn’t even got to yet, but so long as those convictions don’t get him to escalate that to outright intolerance – real restrictions on the freedoms of his opponents, I don’t think the term “bigot” fits.

Which is not to say there aren’t a lot of pejoratives for the man you might use.

-TS

EditedToAdd: Thinking about this a moment more, IIRC Hitchens signed up for the effort to “arrest the Pope” in the UK for “crimes against humanity”. For a crime with some grounding in its charges (had the pope murdered someone, for example), the call for arrest would be obligatory, noble, I think, but the substance of that charge I’d say was flimsy enough, “political enough” that one might say that that effort constituted bigotry; this is the effort to punish or suppress an opponent by official sanction, as a result of one’s hostility. So in that case, I think Hitchens may well be pegged as a bigot. That’s not his stance, generally, though. He’s one to support free speech and to rely on his scolding tongue, rather than official powers, as his weapon.
 
Touchstone

Voting for a ban on gay marriage is wrong headed and prejudiced and unethical, etc. but it goes beyond that into bigotry, because it is the active support for state enforcement of inequality under the law, the abridgment of the rights of other Americans by use of American law.

Your assumption appears to be that everybody should go along with the legalization (and hence approval) of unnatural relationships; and if they don’t, they must be bigots.

If a cadre of mothers campaigned for the legal right to marry their adult sons, or a cadre of fathers demanded the right to marry their adult daughters, and people opposed the demand for that right, would you call the opponents bigots?

Why or why not? 🙂
 
Touchstone

Voting for a ban on gay marriage is wrong headed and prejudiced and unethical, etc. but it goes beyond that into bigotry, because it is the active support for state enforcement of inequality under the law, the abridgment of the rights of other Americans by use of American law.

Your assumption appears to be that everybody should go along with the legalization (and hence approval) of unnatural relationships; and if they don’t, they must be bigots.

If a cadre of mothers campaigned for the legal right to marry their adult sons, or a cadre of fathers demanded the right to marry their adult daughters, and people opposed the demand for that right, would you call the opponents bigots?

Why or why not? 🙂
I’d have to hear their reasons for opposing such, first, but if it’s “God doesn’t like it”, I think that would be case by the same principle. Who am I (er, who are they, I guess) to enable state sanction for such. It’s no business of mine, so far as state sanction is concerned. I don’t want them telling me, via the state’s power, how I can arrange informed, affirmative relationships between consenting adults, so I’ve no basis for visiting such on others. I’ve no basis for that even if I do enjoy state intrusion in my freedom, come to think of it.

Which is not to say I’m not free to have my own convictions and opinions. I’m not obliged to like it, and may be as even-handed or capriciously biased as can be without engaging in intolerance. Ideas and convictions are one thing, censoring and official sanction as weapons in service of those convictions, trafficking on brute force rather than conviction and persuasion are another. I may be wrong, as I’m not up to speed on the wider culture’s finer point sense of the term ‘bigot’, but I think that extra commitment to intolerance is the key ingredient of bigotry.

-TS
 
Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, and the like, are all bigots, and are, quite frankly, morons, yet they still somehow appeal to people. Quentin Smith, John Searle, Jerry Fodor, Simon Blackburn, Michael Martin, are not bigots, and are very smart people who I can respect even if I don’t respect their positions.

The difference between one who is a bigot and one who is not can usually be seen by the ratio of substantive argument to ad hominem folly.
 
At what point does not agreeing with the Catholic Church on something equate to being ‘Anti-Catholic’?
 
At what point does not agreeing with the Catholic Church on something equate to being ‘Anti-Catholic’?
That’s another thing, too. I don’t think disagreeing with the Church is equivalent to bigotry. Rather, it seems to be the manner in which one expresses his or her disagreement. For instance, to say “I think the Church is in error” is not bigotry. To say “The Church has never done anything right and is the largest enemy to humanity and reason” is borderline bigotry. As for genuine bigotry, I’m not poetic enough to come up with something similar to what Hitchens would say. While his manner of speaking is certainly bigotry, I can’t help but love listening to his bigotry since it is so eloquently put.
 
When the unsupported argument supports an argument against a group or person; that is bigotry.
 
That’s another thing, too. I don’t think disagreeing with the Church is equivalent to bigotry. Rather, it seems to be the manner in which one expresses his or her disagreement. For instance, to say “I think the Church is in error” is not bigotry. To say “The Church has never done anything right and is the largest enemy to humanity and reason” is borderline bigotry. As for genuine bigotry, I’m not poetic enough to come up with something similar to what Hitchens would say. While his manner of speaking is certainly bigotry, I can’t help but love listening to his bigotry since it is so eloquently put.
My question was from observation (of other CAF fora) really. There often seems to be a presumption, for example, that the passage of some legislation opposed by the Church is motivated by bigotry - or that ‘naughty, naughty gays’ who talk about ‘naughty, naughty Catholics’ (you get my drift ;)) are anti-Catholic bigots, when really what they are are ‘opponents’ as much caught up in the theatre of events as the CAF commentator.

An actor in the socio-/political field (like the Church), has to face the fact that there are people for whom it is a continuous opponent and who see it as a continuous opponent as misguided as it sees them. So, saying ‘naughty, naughty secular humanists’ (or whoever) have caused many ‘naughty, naughty things to happen’, rather puts one at a disadvantage in claiming that people who say ‘naughty, naughty Catholics’ have caused many ‘naughty, naughty things to happen’ are bigots.
 
I think that when it comes to avoiding bigotry, while still opposing error, charity is the best thing we’ve got. 😉
 
Calling Hitchens, Dawkins and Dennet morons actually qualifies you as a moron.
 
Can we call someone like Christopher Hitchens a bigot and be right about it? He uses non sequiturs and smear tactics; ad hominem and special pleading; insinuation and belligerence all to paint religious believers as deluded, evil, scum, etc. I think this is bigotry. Am I wrong?
Hitchens’ refrain “religion poisons everything” amounts to a sort of bigotry–not against people but against religion. He would only be a bigot against people if he believed that all religious people are bad or have evil intentions. I’ve never heard of an atheist taking that view, but it is all too common for believers to take that view of atheists.
 
Touchstone

but I think that extra commitment to intolerance is the key ingredient of bigotry.

My definition of bigotry would center on the unreasoned and hateful attitude of a person or group of people toward another person or group of people.

Banning homosexual marriage, for example, is not of necessity based on an unreasonable or hateful attitude toward homosexuals (there could still be anti-homosexual bigots, of course). Christians are to despise the sin, not the sinner. But you don’t have to be a Christian to despise a sin against nature. Homosexual acts have been regarded as unnatural by virtually all civilizations since the dawn of history. Why a society should be obliged to honor unnatural behavior in its laws just mystifies me and goes against common sense. Even the Greeks and the Romans, who tolerated homosexuality rather than persecute it, never tried to solemnize it as a lawful state.

Plato, *Laws *[636c] “And whether one makes the observation in earnest or in jest, one certainly should not fail to observe that when male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is held to be due to nature, but contrary to nature when male mates with male or female with female, and that those first guilty of such enormities were impelled by their slavery to pleasure.”

Plato was neither Jew nor Christian.
 
Touchstone

but I think that extra commitment to intolerance is the key ingredient of bigotry.

My definition of bigotry would center on the unreasoned and hateful attitude of a person or group of people toward another person or group of people.

Banning homosexual marriage, for example, is not of necessity based on an unreasonable or hateful attitude toward homosexuals (there could still be anti-homosexual bigots, of course). Christians are to despise the sin, not the sinner. But you don’t have to be a Christian to despise a sin against nature. Homosexual acts have been regarded as unnatural by virtually all civilizations since the dawn of history. Why a society should be obliged to honor unnatural behavior in its laws just mystifies me and goes against common sense. Even the Greeks and the Romans, who tolerated homosexuality rather than persecute it, never tried to solemnize it as a lawful state.

Plato, *Laws *[636c] “And whether one makes the observation in earnest or in jest, one certainly should not fail to observe that when male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is held to be due to nature, but contrary to nature when male mates with male or female with female, and that those first guilty of such enormities were impelled by their slavery to pleasure.”

Plato was neither Jew nor Christian.
All sounds rather like special pleading - “being against what we think of as very, very naughty people isn’t bigotry but being against what you think of as very, very naughty people is bigotry.”
 
All sounds rather like special pleading - “being against what we think of as very, very naughty people isn’t bigotry but being against what you think of as very, very naughty people is bigotry.”
Actually, it sounds more like what Touchstone said about Hitchens not being a bigot because he attacks the religion, not the people in it (paraphrased). Likewise, Catholics hate the lifestyle (sin) not the people in that life style. Just like you would not like the state implementing all Catholic doctrine as laws, Catholics would not like to see the state mandating that society accept sinful unnatural behavior as good and natural.
 
Actually, it sounds more like what Touchstone said about Hitchens not being a bigot because he attacks the religion, not the people in it (paraphrased). Likewise, Catholics hate the lifestyle (sin) not the people in that life style. Just like you would not like the state implementing all Catholic doctrine as laws, Catholics would not like to see the state mandating that society accept sinful unnatural behavior as good and natural.
But are people who oppose implementing Catholic doctrine as laws anti-Catholic bigots (which is where I came in on this thread)? 🙂

There’s a language thing going on here - it’s one thing to say ‘I oppose gay marriage because I believe it to be immoral and a threat to values that I think I should apply (for various reasons)’ and another to drone on about ‘unnatural’ and ‘despising sins against nature’. At what point does the language used go over the border from justified opposition into ‘bigotry’? At what point does the language used raise the question of special pleading?
 
Charlemagne II;7064132 said:
That is sort of like saying that Jesus was not a Christian. Plato had a strong influence on Christianity. It would be impossible to make sense of transubstantiation for example without the Platonic notion of essence. The same sort of thinking that led Plato to discount homosexuality leads Christians to denounce it today, but few ethical philosophers today follow a natural law approach to morality. Following Plato in his ethical understanding is no better than following Aristotle in his scientific understanding. Most of us have made a lot of progress since then. Most of us think that what is moral is not what is natural but rather what contributes to human well being.
 
Actually, it sounds more like what Touchstone said about Hitchens not being a bigot because he attacks the religion, not the people in it (paraphrased). Likewise, Catholics hate the lifestyle (sin) not the people in that life style. Just like you would not like the state implementing all Catholic doctrine as laws, Catholics would not like to see the state mandating that society accept sinful unnatural behavior as good and natural.
The state does not require you to believe that homosexuality is moral. The state simply will not impose your religious view upon someone else in the absence of any state interest in forbidding it. The good news for you is that other people don’t get to impose their religious views on you!
 
The state does not require you to believe that homosexuality is moral. The state simply will not impose your religious view upon someone else in the absence of any state interest in forbidding it. The good news for you is that other people don’t get to impose their religious views on you!
And when this sinful relationship has the power of the state behind it… what then? How many Catholic orphanages have closed down in UK because the state wanted to make them adopt out to a state protected sinful relationship? What about when a Catholic charity hires a homosexual (because we don’t hate the sinner) and then is forced to recognize the sinful behaviour by providing health care for their mate? The Charity will get sued and shut down for discrimination or they will be forced to perform acts that are against their beliefs. Just like the push for Catholic hospitals to provide abortions. Don’t tell me there will not be requireing involved.
 
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