This seems like a completely different subject than the OP. I think the answer to this question would have to be found in the notes of the original law itself.
As for the issue of when evening begins, and when the Sunday obligation begins to be fulfilled, I cannot imagine a difference between the two. The only thing I’ve heard in support of this is that some canonists say that evening begins at noon, therefore we can have 2 different standards. But I’ve heard nothing to support how this could be possible. How can we make any distinction between the beginning of evening, and the beginning of the time for Sunday Mass. That’s what I’m just not seeing. I’m willing to listen to an explanation, but from my point of view, I have yet to hear one. I’m willing to pursue it, but I’m just missing the place where anyone said anything in support of the idea, other than to just state it. Maybe I’m just missing it. How about a seperate message post presenting only that argument, so it’s clear to me?
So, you have a copy of the 1917 Code? Great. That’s what we’ve been needing.
I think that’s what this is leading to: saying that if one could attend an illicit Mass on Sunday and fulfill the obligation, then the same would apply to a Saturday.
It wouldn’t be “illicit” in the same sense, though. It would just be a Saturday Mass, with the wrong readings.
Yes. The person who decides to go with the Sunday readings/propers would be in the wrong, but it would be a Saturday Mass, and would do nothing to count toward the Sunday obligation.It wouldn’t be “illicit” in the same sense, though. It would just be a Saturday Mass, with the wrong readings.
Not the first time, either - we have a Psalmist for our Saturday Mass who insists on always using the Sunday Psalm (not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but he is an enthusiastic volunteer). It’s still a Saturday Mass, though, even though the wrong Psalm is used, and I assume the same case would apply even if all of the readings were from Sunday, instead of Saturday. Would it not?
And it still wouldn’t count for Sunday, although it would count for the Indulgence associated with Our Lady’s First Saturday, if it happened to be the first Saturday of the month - I think?
In our case, the priest allows it because, first of all, he isn’t aware that the wrong Psalm is about to be used until the Psalmist begins to sing it (he doesn’t consult with him before the start of the Mass) and he doesn’t get after him later on, because he doesn’t want to dampen the fellow’s enthusiasm - he figures eventually the guy will notice that the other readings are different than Sunday, and hopefully he’ll think of asking someone why, and then find out about the existence of weekday and Saturday Masses. (This particular fellow only helps out at certain times of the year; I don’t think he’s even aware that there is a Mass every Saturday morning; not just the specific ones that he helps out with.)
Yes, I’m aware of these. They’re usually listed as alternates in the books that we use.
We see in both the liturgical and canon laws, that the days are midnight to midnight, however celebrations begin on the evening of the previous day. The 1983 canon law intentionally did not give an exact moment, so that does represent a difference from any prior hard limit. In practice, for example, St. Damian in Oak Forest, IL had the Christmas Vigil Mass at 3:00 pm Saturday in 2014. They also celebrated Christmas Vigil Mass at 4:30 pm, 6:00 pm, and later that night at midnight.
The liturgical days of solemnities (which includes all Sundays) begin in the evening of the previous calendar day. Evening, not noon.
You can read the liturgical norms here (first reference below, from 1969) which will give you the general schema, that observance of a Sunday and a solemnity begins on the preceding liturgical day, but the determination of that time is made by the local ordinary, according to Eucharisticum Mysterium (see second reference below, from 1967). There was a limit of 4 pm established in 1957 at which time there was for those evenings, a three hour fast from food established as a Eucharistic fast rather than from midnight, so it actually served as a safeguard to those finishing lunch by 1 pm.**
14. Memorials are either obligatory or optional. Their observance is integrated into the celebration of the occurring weekday in accord with the norms set forth in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal and the Liturgy of the Hours.