When Does "Friend " Become "Foe"?

[Sister_Helena]

You have heard it said “Tell me your friends and I will tell you who you are.” Some spiritual writers will tell you to choose your friends wisely because bad company can corrupt a person. St. Teresa of Avila says in her Interior Castle that someone who struggles in the spiritual life is helped by having good and virtuous friends. But Jesus was known to be in the company of sinners and outcast? Isn’t his example the only example we need? How do you balance this equation of wanting virtuous friends and extending one’s charity to unsavory characters? Tell me what you think…

 

[AveSantaMaria]

I think that it depends on one’s own spiritual maturity. Are you lifting these people or up or are they lifting you down? Why are you with them, “lack of courage” or “love of God”? Notice that Jesus spent time with tax collectors and sinners and witnessed to all but his disciples really didn’t do the same until after Christ had left them in the Ressurection. I think, “a time for everything. Everything has its time.”

 

[Benadam]

You have heard it said “Tell me your friends and I will tell you who you are.” Some spiritual writers will tell you to choose your friends wisely because bad company can corrupt a person. St. Teresa of Avila says in her Interior Castle that someone who struggles in the spiritual life is helped by having good and virtuous friends. But Jesus was known to be in the company of sinners and outcast? Isn’t his example the only example we need? How do you balance this equation of wanting virtuous friends and extending one’s charity to unsavory characters? Tell me what you think…

Sister, I think as it pertains to allowing the more unsavory types within our sphere of relationships the question 'who is my neighbor?" solicited the answer from Jesus. It’s not so much who but am I a friend of people ?

As it pertains to who we allow a more intimate role in our lives I want friends who in some way push me to become a better person. Their love is courageous and willing to allow it to be risked on my account. Like a courtship with a spouse it takes alot of time to know someone as this kind of friend IMHO.

 

[mmm1]

I will await the responses you get eagerly , because I have been wondering about this lately. A bible study I was at was recently discussing 1Corinthians 1-8. Our take on it was that St. Paul was saying to stay away from people who say they are Christians, but really aren’t. It sounded like St. Paul was saying we’re safer with non-believers, because we can’t be corrupted by them. We know non-Christians have different views, & we’re not likely to be swayed by them. The commentary suggested St. Paul really believed people who were Catholics in name only were much more spiritually dangerous.

       9"I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world.  But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother , if he is im immoral, greedy, ani dolater, a slanderer a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. 12 For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within?  God will judge those outside.  "Purge the evil person from your midst".

I have been struggling with this also, & finding that balance in the modern world. It concerns me even more so as a parent, so I will await your responses…

 

[kyria]

When God placed me with the broken and the sinners and the unvirtuous, they taught me not only to know true aspects of myself, they taught me to differentiate light from dark, to see the darkness in them as mirroring forms of darkness in myself, and to see forms of light in them that mirrored forms of light in myself.

They taught me to be more humble and let go of some pride, they taught me there by the grace of God go I, they taught me to understand more the love, compassion and forgiveness of God.

They taught me to strive to be more like the goodness I saw in them and less like the darkness I saw in them.

Some I had to move away from and just pray for them, but at least they gave me the opportunity to pray for them. Because maybe I was the only one at the time who was praying for them.

They taught me that I am also a sinner.

At times my mother is my friend and at times she is my foe. But I can see the struggle she has at times with the influence of the darkness. When she is operating from the light, she is a good teacher. When she is operating from the darkness, she teaches me to pray for her. There were some times when I was almost going to never speak to her again, but how does that help her if I did thus? And how do I then get to learn from her times of light? Sometimes I have to balance. I have to steel myself before I come into contact with some foes. Sometimes I do have to pull away for a bit. But their darkness does not have to mean I am drawn into it. Sometimes I am. Sometimes with my mum I’ve sworn in my head at her, I’ve probably even sworn at her direct and my tongue has thus become defiled. But next time I try harder. Because her darkness does if I allow it, teach me more and more to become more light in myself in various aspects, and one of them is love and compassion. And sometimes it is learning to turn the other cheek and trying hard not to allow my words to defile my heart.

And it works in the opposite direction. Maybe some of my virtues might rub off on my foes in some ways. But if we don’t cross paths, neither can avail the other party of learning.

Some of these friends were foe’s. But that never meant I had to become their foe.

 

[chromatica]

i have more non-religious friends than religious. atheists, agnostica, pagans, straight, gay, etc. these friends are hang out friends. go to pizza, movies, friday girls nights, go dancing. things like that. talk about relationships. some of my friends are crazy immoral to Catholic ways but have good hearts. i am ok with who they are. they are ok with who i am.

i have Catholic friends. i like to be with people who believe the same things i do. i like praying with friends. i like to sit at Mass with people i know. and i like to hang out with non-Catholic friends. Catholic friends like to do calmer things. calm is something i like.

i love my friends, all of them.

a foe is someone who hurts people. tries to ruin their faith. or make them feel bad to get what they want.

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

When I divorced… I lost ALL but 3 friends.

It was incredibly painful but… Jesus had a plan…
My 3 friends that remained… ALL CATHOLIC.

This made it easy to go through RCIA…I had the support of my 3 real friends.

 

[MarieVeronica]

Sister, I’ve been re-reading this question since you posted it. Trying to sort it out in my puny little mind.

The only thing I could conclude is this. That when any person “unsavory” or “virtuous” enters our lives, it seems to be for the same reason to me. To teach us more about the state of our own soul. “Unsavory” people might teach us about our own flaws; our likes and dislikes or any sensitivities which we need to work on… and conquer.

And “virtuous” people can teach us, by their example… how to advance in virtue. We learn from them, how we should conduct ourselves in many situations. And hopefully, we can then grow in virtue ourselves.

I feel that Our Good Lord puts a LOT of “teachers” into our lives. He may also occasionally ask us to “teach”. We may or may not be aware of it, if He does this.

My :twocents:

 

[Benadam]

I feel that Our Good Lord puts a LOT of “teachers” into our lives. He may also occasionally ask us to “teach”. We may or may not be aware of it, if He does this.

My :twocents:

 

[Sister_Helena]

We can definitely learn from each other, “unsavory” and virtuous alike. But then this again require selk-knowledge. We can learn even from bad company if we have that willingness or ability to learn. Unfortunately, people do have the ability to influence us for better or for worse, We need good judgment and humility to acknowledge where our vulnerabilities are so as to avoid occasions of sin (person, places or things). If we find that certain company affects us in a negative way, I think it is prudent to avoid this company. we should not expose ourselves to situations that will make us fall. We can only be a good friend to others if we contribute to the other’s good. If we close our eyes and tolerate the bad in a friendship out of “respect” or “tolerance” it is just like the blind leading the blind and both will end up in a ditch! we show our love for our friends when we lead them to the path that will lead them to God. We are, whether we like it or not, our brother / sister’s keeper. This is not a one-way street, Hopefully, my friends care for me enough to lead me back to the right path when I lose my way.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

We can definitely learn from each other, “unsavory” and virtuous alike. But then this again require selk-knowledge. We can learn even from bad company if we have that willingness or ability to learn. Unfortunately, people do have the ability to influence us for better or for worse, We need good judgment and humility to acknowledge where our vulnerabilities are so as to avoid occasions of sin (person, places or things). If we find that certain company affects us in a negative way, I think it is prudent to avoid this company. we should not expose ourselves to situations that will make us fall. We can only be a good friend to others if we contribute to the other’s good. If we close our eyes and tolerate the bad in a friendship out of “respect” or “tolerance” it is just like the blind leading the blind and both will end up in a ditch! we show our love for our friends when we lead them to the path that will lead them to God. We are, whether we like it or not, our brother / sister’s keeper. This is not a one-way street, Hopefully, my friends care for me enough to lead me back to the right path when I lose my way.

Sister Helena, I think this is a great post with great insight much needed for me. It reminds me of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, where the good Father (God), let his son wander off without chasing after him. Sometimes perhaps distance is appropriate. At other times, it is not.

Maybe though it is also wise to remember St. Maria Faustina’s advice in Divine Mercy in My Soul not to rely on others (given to her by Christ) to rely only on God. Perhaps when we reach that state we are ready to befriend others without them bringing us down.

The only question that I have concerns Catholics who are living in sin. Scripture tells us that we can’t avoid non-Christians living in sin because then we would have to live out of the world but to put the “sinning brother” away. How can we tell who to do this to? Just Catholics? All Christians if they don’t follow Scripture in significant ways?

 

[chromatica]

We can definitely learn from each other, “unsavory” and virtuous alike. But then this again require selk-knowledge. We can learn even from bad company if we have that willingness or ability to learn. Unfortunately, people do have the ability to influence us for better or for worse, We need good judgment and humility to acknowledge where our vulnerabilities are so as to avoid occasions of sin (person, places or things). If we find that certain company affects us in a negative way, I think it is prudent to avoid this company. we should not expose ourselves to situations that will make us fall. We can only be a good friend to others if we contribute to the other’s good. If we close our eyes and tolerate the bad in a friendship out of “respect” or “tolerance” it is just like the blind leading the blind and both will end up in a ditch! we show our love for our friends when we lead them to the path that will lead them to God. We are, whether we like it or not, our brother / sister’s keeper. This is not a one-way street, Hopefully, my friends care for me enough to lead me back to the right path when I lose my way.

i don’t know. i think we are taught to see every person as God sees them. i’m not even sure, who, exactly would be free of “unsavory”. i don’t believe we should look for occasions to sin. sometimes, people and places find us. or, they are people and places that are always there and there is no getting around them.

 

[Sister_Helena]

Perhaps when we reach that state we are ready to befriend others without them bringing us down.

The only question that I have concerns Catholics who are living in sin. Scripture tells us that we can’t avoid non-Christians living in sin because then we would have to live out of the world but to put the “sinning brother” away. How can we tell who to do this to? Just Catholics? All Christians if they don’t follow Scripture in significant ways?

I believe this has all to do with **timing **and prudent judgment. Timing in the sense that if our spiritual life is weak and fragile, we need good company and virtuous friends to help us along. There is a "herd mentality we find in our young people in relation to their peers. Peer pressure is a real problem in the psychosocial development of a young person. But there comes a time in our journey when we develop in strength and grace and what used to be a temptation for us before,no longer poses as real threats.
The book on the “Interior CAstle” by St. Teresa discusses this subject in the First Three Mansions. In each of the Mansion we enter into, there is a particular temptation to be met and overcome different from the other mansions. With this particular struggle, she proposes specific course of action. This particular thread we are discussing is expounded beautifully in the First and Second Mansions. Once we develop the virtues and begin to enter even the Third Mansion, our first temptations no longer become the issue.

No, we cannot avoid people nor am I saying that we should deliberately shun them, That is not the teaching of Jesus. But we cannot give what we do not have (us to others) nor receive something (others to us) if we are not ready for it. Philosopher once said “Know Thyself.” That is my humble opinion and insight.

 

[wcknight]

I think it depends on why we choose to be around the particular circle of friends. I have friends who are devout Catholics. I draw strength and encouragement from these folks. I have non Catholic and fallen away Catholic friends. I pray for these folks and hope I can be an example to them, hoping, praying and encouraging them to accept or return to the Church.

I don’t have any friends who I consider unsavory or on the wrong side of the law. I would not know how to deal with them, and I would think it could be dangerous both to myself or my family.

I think if one is on shakey ground to begin with or are easily influenced, they should avoid even the fallen away Catholics and they should never associate with the shadier elements.

 

[MarieVeronica]

We can definitely learn from each other, “unsavory” and virtuous alike. But then this again require selk-knowledge. We can learn even from bad company if we have that willingness or ability to learn. Unfortunately, people do have the ability to influence us for better or for worse, We need good judgment and humility to acknowledge where our vulnerabilities are so as to avoid occasions of sin (person, places or things). If we find that certain company affects us in a negative way, I think it is prudent to avoid this company. we should not expose ourselves to situations that will make us fall. We can only be a good friend to others if we contribute to the other’s good. If we close our eyes and tolerate the bad in a friendship out of “respect” or “tolerance” it is just like the blind leading the blind and both will end up in a ditch! we show our love for our friends when we lead them to the path that will lead them to God. We are, whether we like it or not, our brother / sister’s keeper. This is not a one-way street, Hopefully, my friends care for me enough to lead me back to the right path when I lose my way.

Sister, thank you for clarifying some problems areas for me. I’m still a bit confused, though… about how we acquire “self-knowledge”. Do we do this… based on our own judgments of things? <if so, that kinda scares me >. Or do we acquire self-knowledge through experience with other people <ex: “George” gets on my nerves; so I need to work on my patience.>; Or through Church teaching… or reading Scripture or the lives of the saints… maybe?

Obviously, a person trying to lead a good Christian life… isn’t necessarily going to “pal around” with a drug dealer… etc. But how do we make a determination of every day people in our lives (which could even extend to family members; or in your case, members of your community)… whether they are good for us or not? Or if perhaps, Our Lord has placed a “problem” soul in our life… in order for us to help them? This is where I’m confused, I guess.

If we make a determination, on our own… that a particular person isn’t “good” for us… then how are we able to lead them to the path, which will lead to God?

Sorry to be such a question box Just trying to sort it all out. Thanks, Sister!

 

[Sister_Helena]

Sister, thank you for clarifying some problems areas for me. I’m still a bit confused, though… about how we acquire “self-knowledge”. Do we do this… based on our own judgments of things? <if so, that kinda scares me >. Or do we acquire self-knowledge through experience with other people <ex: “George” gets on my nerves; so I need to work on my patience.>; Or through Church teaching… or reading Scripture or the lives of the saints… maybe?

Obviously, a person trying to lead a good Christian life… isn’t necessarily going to “pal around” with a drug dealer… etc. But how do we make a determination of every day people in our lives (which could even extend to family members; or in your case, members of your community)… whether they are good for us or not? Or if perhaps, Our Lord has placed a “problem” soul in our life… in order for us to help them? This is where I’m confused, I guess.

If we make a determination, on our own… that a particular person isn’t “good” for us… then how are we able to lead them to the path, which will lead to God?

Sorry to be such a question box Just trying to sort it all out. Thanks, Sister!

Growth in the spiritual life is both active and infused, active and passive. This is how I would go about it: George is getting on my nerves. I obviously need to work on my patience but I will take it a step further. In my prayer, asking the guidance of the Holy Spirit I would ask myself: “Why does George get on my nerves? Because he contradicts me often? Because he has a loud and abrasive personality? Because… How did Jesus react towards those who contrdicted him? How did he react with those who had abrasive and coarse personalities? I react the way I do because maybe I hate to be contradicted? I find coarse people unattractive? Lord, give me patience to accept others as they are, not as I would want them to be.” If one is honest with this type of exercise, one can acquire self-knowledge.
Sometimes people would tell us up front "“You are very bossy! You think you know eveything!” Again, bring this to prayer and analyze yourself in the light of this assessment and contrast yourself to the example given us by Jesus. Self-knowledge is acquired this way. As one progresses in the interior life, God grants “lights” that will make us see ourselves quite differently. People may rave how humble we are, or how generous we are, or how detach we are, but the infused self-knowledge God gives us (true humility) tells us otherwise. The example of Jesus must be our measuring stick to gain true self-knowledge (studying his life and imitating his example in circumstances he found himself in.)

We can never make a fair determination because we cannot see the heart of the person, only God can. Your **partial determination **will depend on what you behaviorally see. I can tell by someone’s behavior if it is wrong or not, I cannot judge the motive but I can make a judgment of the action. We cannot make a determination if we don’t know what the Church teaches or what Jesus teaches about a particular behavior.This is where we need to know what the Catholic Church teaches. This is where we need to know what the Word of God teaches. I have relatives who are need of instructions and guidance in the practice of the Faith, friends who live loose lifestyles. I counsel them according to what I know of my Faith. There are things they do(even innocent “fun” they ask me to join) which are not proper for me to do because of my status as a Religious (it may not be sinful but just not proper for me as a Sister.) I tell them so and risk being misunderstood and jeopardizing friendships. But I won’t be able to compromise under the pretense of “leading them to God” because I may end up offending him. “What does it matter if you gain the whole world and lose your soul.” I know my weaknesses and strengths. Prayer is the key to enter the inner castle of our soul. Unless we bring all this to prayer it will just be an intellectual exercise. Prayer is the door to self-knowledge.

I’m sorry to confuse you it’s not my intention. St. Teresa can explain it much better in the Interior Castle. At least, that is how I understand her views. Have you read it?

P.S
When St. Therese was a Postulant, she used to run away when the temptation got strong for her. She calls it her “flight” response. She knew how much she can handle at that point. Later on in her religious life, she actually looked for the occasions where her virtues were put to the test.

 

[MarieVeronica]

I’m sorry to confuse you it’s not my intention. St. Teresa can explain it much better in the Interior Castle. At least, that is how I understand her views. Have you read it?

P.S
When St. Therese was a Postulant, she used to run away when the temptation got strong for her. She calls it her “flight” response. She knew how much she can handle at that point. Later on in her religious life, she actually looked for the occasions where her virtues were put to the test.

Sister, it’s not your fault… that I was confused! I take after my mom… in that, I tend to “analyze” things to death. I probably create a great many difficulties for myself, in my dissection of ideas… which is at best, messy! I haven’t yet tackled “Interior Castle”. But maybe it’s time for me to try. I’ll look for it, soon.

Your explanation… above… was awesome. And I thank you for it. May I copy it to my own notes? I’d like to read back over it… from time to time. Even after this thread is gone.

I think that God has shown me quite a few things about myself… <self knowledge?> since I began caregiving, full time… for my sweet mother. Each times she gives me some sort of praise (for some little thing, I’ve done for her)… I can feel myself wince; because I believe it to be undeserved. I suppose that could be a sort of self-knowledge.

But nothing that I could “run away” from… ala St. Therese! I had forgotten about that… but now that you mention it, remember it… from her autobiography. I have MUCH work to do… before I could seek out… “virtue tests”! I have too many now, of the impromptu kind!

Thanks again!

 

[Little_Dove]

Dear Sister,
Do you think, or perhaps you have already posted it and I didn’t see it, that you could post on what true Charity is? I’ve struggled with this question for a long time! I think I found some answers in your post about timing and prudence. To me, I need to be surrounded by a lot of good, solid, Christ-centered people who love and pray for me, in order to be charitable to even one person who isn’t. Does that make sense? I need a pretty overwhelming ratio of friends to foes in my life at any given time. Otherwise I find that my treatment of someone who, say annoys me or irritates me is not very charitable. I have been in relationships that I have thought, “You know, all I can give this person is my prayers, I cannot interact with this person, because everytime I do, it is an occasion if not an opportunity for me to sin.” But this makes me feel very badly…especially if that person wants my friendship.

God Bless!
To Jesus, Through Mary

 

[AveSantaMaria]

I believe this has all to do with **timing **and prudent judgment. Timing in the sense that if our spiritual life is weak and fragile, we need good company and virtuous friends to help us along. There is a "herd mentality we find in our young people in relation to their peers. Peer pressure is a real problem in the psychosocial development of a young person. But there comes a time in our journey when we develop in strength and grace and what used to be a temptation for us before,no longer poses as real threats.
The book on the “Interior CAstle” by St. Teresa discusses this subject in the First Three Mansions. In each of the Mansion we enter into, there is a particular temptation to be met and overcome different from the other mansions. With this particular struggle, she proposes specific course of action. This particular thread we are discussing is expounded beautifully in the First and Second Mansions. Once we develop the virtues and begin to enter even the Third Mansion, our first temptations no longer become the issue.

No, we cannot avoid people nor am I saying that we should deliberately shun them, That is not the teaching of Jesus. But we cannot give what we do not have (us to others) nor receive something (others to us) if we are not ready for it. Philosopher once said “Know Thyself.” That is my humble opinion and insight.

Thanks for the advice Sister Helena. I am reading Interior Castle. I get a lot out of the book but it appears there is so very much that I also miss. Maybe I should open up a discussion of the book to public comment on the Spirituality Forum.

Further on the subject of friendship, how does privacy and openness appropriately exist in friendships and relationships with Catholics (devout and non-devout), Christians, and those of other religions or no relation at all.

 

[Sister_Helena]

Dear Sister,
Do you think, or perhaps you have already posted it and I didn’t see it, that you could post on what true Charity is? I’ve struggled with this question for a long time! I think I found some answers in your post about timing and prudence. To me, I need to be surrounded by a lot of good, solid, Christ-centered people who love and pray for me, in order to be charitable to even one person who isn’t. Does that make sense? I need a pretty overwhelming ratio of friends to foes in my life at any given time. Otherwise I find that my treatment of someone who, say annoys me or irritates me is not very charitable. I have been in relationships that I have thought, “You know, all I can give this person is my prayers, I cannot interact with this person, because everytime I do, it is an occasion if not an opportunity for me to sin.” But this makes me feel very badly…especially if that person wants my friendship.

God Bless!
To Jesus, Through Mary

This is True Charity according to Saint Paul from 1Corinthians 13: 4-7, 13

Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous;
love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly;
it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails…But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Isn’t this a beautiful definition of true Charity? That is what we all aim for.

Don’t feel bad that you find yourself needing of your friends to be patient and kind with others. As long as you continue to find friends like you have, you should feel grateful to God. But because Charity and the following of Jesus is a personal journey, try to exercise the virtues separate from your friends. In other words, don’t be always dependent on them to do good. **You are capable of doing good. **God has equipped us all with this ability. To acquire virtue it will take repetitious acts to make a pattern of good acts or good habit to develop. Keep on trying and don’t be discouraged when you find yourself failing. When you find you can’t be patient, then you can practice the virtue of humility. If you find you can’t be strong, then practice the virtue of meekness. God will see your goodwill and bless you. It is not the result that is important, it is the determination to do good. The Holy Spirit, Giver of all gifts, will aid you when you ask for help. Remember what St. Paul said, “it is when I am weak, that I am strong!”