When Does God Touch Earth?

[Antonius_Lupus]

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I was at the Divine Liturgy in a Melkite-Byzantine Catholic Church, and I noticed that they seemed to place more emphasis on the epiclesis.

For my Protestant brothers and sisters, the epiclesis is when the celebrant prays for the descent of the Holy Spirit onto the bread and wine and asks the Holy Spirit to turn the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Now, as a Roman Catholic, I was taught that the bread and wine cease to exist with the words of institution (i.e. “This is my Body…”).

I read somewhere that the Eastern Orthodox (and thus the Eastern Catholics) believe that the change comes with the epiclesis, which explains why the Byzantine Catholics seem to put more emphasis on this.

What is official Church teaching on when the bread and wine cease to exist?

Or has the Church yet to define this?

 

[bpbasilphx]

This is actually a non-question.

There is an epiclesis in the Roman Eucharistic prayers, but before the Words of Institution.

The Eastern Churches generally have the Word of Institution, then the Epiclesis.

Both prayers are said.

If you go back even farther, you would see that the entire Anaphora (Canon/Eucharistic Prayer) was seen as a whole. The WHOLE prayer is consecratory.

In the Byzantine Tradition, the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil are the main rites given to us by our Church to accomplish the Eucharistic Sacrifice.

In the Roman tradtion, the four Eucharist Prayers are what is given to the Western Church to confect the Eucharist.

There is no real conflict between the two.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

In the Latin rite we are told the change takes place when the words of institution are said. In eastern rites we are told it is at the epiclesis. Both can be true. Why not? They are all true rites. Is there any reason why the change could not happen at different times within the Eucharistic prayer depending on the rite if God wills it?? I don’t think the Catholic church has made a pronouncement about this (but if it has, I accept it).

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

This is actually a non-question.

There is an epiclesis in the Roman Eucharistic prayers, but before the Words of Institution.

The Eastern Churches generally have the Word of Institution, then the Epiclesis.

Both prayers are said.

If you go back even farther, you would see that the entire Anaphora (Canon/Eucharistic Prayer) was seen as a whole. The WHOLE prayer is consecratory.

In the Byzantine Tradition, the Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil are the main rites given to us by our Church to accomplish the Eucharistic Sacrifice.

In the Roman tradtion, the four Eucharist Prayers are what is given to the Western Church to confect the Eucharist.

There is no real conflict between the two.

Ahhh, I see. So both prayers are really ONE Anaphora or Consecration interesting…

 

[Digitonomy]

There are actually a number of threads in the old archived Eastern Christianity forum which discussed this in detail. Hopefully it won’t be long before the staff finishes reviewing the threads and makes them publicly available again.

From what I recall, most Eastern theologians don’t argue that it happens at this or that point, but rather that it happens at some point during the anaphora, without presuming to know exactly when that point is.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

There are actually a number of threads in the old archived Eastern Christianity forum which discussed this in detail. Hopefully it won’t be long before the staff finishes reviewing the threads and makes them publicly available again.

From what I recall, most Eastern theologians don’t argue that it happens at this or that point, but rather that it happens at some point during the anaphora, without presuming to know exactly when that point is.

I see.

Thank you.