When does Hell = Death?

[Mackamp]

A scripture was quoted in one of your articles:
Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

When in fact the scriptures reads like this:
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Death and Hell mean very different things. Although, most of us would agree if you were in Hell you definitely could have what some may call a spiritual death.

I did looked this scripture up. Over a dozen different “Bibles” reference it as the second choose.

The scriptures as written by ancient Prophets and Jesus Christ should never be change. The contemporary “Bible” is not a reliable source for scriptures if indeed they are going to change them to suit the needs of the people today. God did not intend us to rewrite his scriptures!

 

[Fauken]

When in fact the scriptures reads like this:
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

By Scriptures though, you are referring to the KJV bible.

The scriptures as written by ancient Prophets and Jesus Christ should never be change.

They didn’t write the KJV translation.

The contemporary “Bible” is not a reliable source for scriptures if indeed they are going to change them to suit the needs of the people today.

Which Bible is that? As you said in your post,

Over a dozen different “Bibles” reference it as the second choose.

So what is the “modern” bible? Are you aware that there are multiple translations any given Catholic will cite? Here’s my normal choice: the Douay-Rheims:

“16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Also, the people who write articles for CA do not check this forum. You’d have better luck calling in during the show and asking them about it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Please provide a link to the actual article you’re talking about so we can see what version of the Bible was referenced and in what context.

There are many versions of the Bible, but only a subset of those are Catholic-approved.

 

[Vico]

Matthew 16:18

New Revised Standard Version CE

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

Revised Standard Version CE

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
Footnote on powers of death is: Greek the gates of Hades

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Revised Standard Version CE

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
Footnote on powers of death is: Greek the gates of Hades

I frankly wonder why it was really necessary for them to change that from the original Greek. and make an extra footnote. It appears in the new version they have changed it back, which would be a relief.

 

[fhansen]

Some thoughts that may apply. Hell has been referred to as “eternal death”, as opposed to eternal life. From my understanding this death is also called the “second death”, as Revelations mentions several times:
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Rev 21:8

On earth we’re “born dead” so to speak, in need of being born again. For entrance into hell that death is confirmed and made eternal by our choices in this life.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Revised Standard Version CE

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
Footnote on powers of death is: Greek the gates of Hades

I frankly wonder why it was really necessary for them to change that from the original Greek. and make an extra footnote. It appears in the new version they have changed it back, which would be a relief.

“Gates” in antiquity generally represent authority or power, so in that iteration the translators chose to be less literal.

 

[Gorgias]

Hi, @Mackamp! Welcome!

A scripture was quoted in one of your articles:

Actually, Catholic Answers sponsors this forum, but its employees don’t populate it. We’re just a group of everyday folks who came across this forum – just as you did! – and spend time here talking about a wide variety of topics. You’ll find Catholics, non-Catholic Christians, non-Christian believers of other faiths, agnostics and atheists in these threads!

When in fact the scriptures reads like this:
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Death and Hell mean very different things.

Actually, the original Greek doesn’t say “hell”. It says “Hades”. ‘Hades’ represents “death”, whereas “hell” represents “damnation.” As @Vico points out, the use of the word “gates” in antiquity tends to mean “powers”, so “the powers of death” is a reasonable translation.

 

[EndTimes]

Death generally refers to Death of the Body…

Hell … generally refers to whereever one winds up when those who Adamantly Reject God’s Offer of His Kingdom - are in a figurative/literall manner - granted their will.

Upon Jesus’ Return - Death / Evil / Sin - shall be in a manner chained…

Spiritual death?

— Lake of Fire - Second Death.

Revelation 20:13-15 New International Version​

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[BigRon]

Hell/Hades and death get thrown in the lake of fire anyway.

 

[Zaccheus]

“Gates” in antiquity generally represent authority or power, so in that iteration the translators chose to be less literal.

Also as I understand it the gates of a city were a symbol of the defensive strength of the city. If your city’s gates did not prevail that meant the enemy got through the gates and invaded your city.

The scriptures as written by ancient Prophets and Jesus Christ should never be change.

The scriptures as written by ancient prophets were written in Hebrew. The New Testament was written in ancient Greek. Without translations we couldn’t read them anyway.
And scripture quotes Christ but Christ never wrote any scripture.

 

[Vico]

…
Also as I understand it the gates of a city were a symbol of the defensive strength of the city. If your city’s gates did not prevail that meant the enemy got through the gates and invaded your city.
…

Psalms 23

7 Lift up your gates, O ye princes, and be ye lifted up, O eternal gates: and the King of Glory shall enter in.

 

[Zaccheus]

Zaccheus:

…
Also as I understand it the gates of a city were a symbol of the defensive strength of the city. If your city’s gates did not prevail that meant the enemy got through the gates and invaded your city.
…

Psalms 23

7 Lift up your gates, O ye princes, and be ye lifted up, O eternal gates: and the King of Glory shall enter in.

Oh yes, exactly. Open the gates of your city and let the King of Glory enter.

 

[EndTimes]

The New Testament was written in ancient Greek.

Not all of the original NT was Scribed in Greek …

Matthew is accepted by the Church as having been written in Hebrew w/possible Aramaic

And even the Greek is a translaltion of Aramaic and Hebrew

It matters naught that Jesus did not write any of the NT

First come the Events themselves.

Then the EyeWitness Oral Accounts

From that the Written Accounts.

The Initial Faith in Jesus - did not come from the NT
which did not come into existence as we know it today until circa 400 AD
_

 

[Crocus]

Our OP spent fully one minute on this site. Maybe he just wanted to report a “typo.” :woman_shrugging:t2:

 

[EndTimes]

Translations? Are usually OK.

Even a Child knows what, “Don’t Lie” really means…

That said. There are some translations which are unacceptable

_

 

[Zaccheus]

Not all of the original NT was Scribed in Greek …

Matthew is accepted by the Church as having been written in Hebrew w/possible Aramaic

And even the Greek is a translaltion of Aramaic and Hebrew

Which does not contradict my point. We couldn’t have access to Scripture without translations.

The Initial Faith in Jesus - did not come from the NT
which did not come into existence as we know it today until circa 400 AD

Those who heard Him speak and saw what He did, had faith in Him. Those who heard from the eyewitnesses had faith in Him. Over time the accounts were committed to writing so that we might know of Him.

The official canon may not have been proclaimed till centuries later, but the Gospels were written within a generation of the Resurrection. They were eyewitness accounts or else written by those who interviewed eyewitnesses. The various Epistles were all written by the original Apostles during their own lifetimes. The Book of Acts ends with Paul living in Rome, apparently awaiting trial–which means he was still alive at that point.

 

[EndTimes]

Which does not contradict my point. We couldn’t have access to Scripture without translations.

I think we’re in agreement with one another…

 

[Zaccheus]

Zaccheus:

Which does not contradict my point. We couldn’t have access to Scripture without translations.

I think we’re in agreement with one another…

I think we are, and good.

 

[Gorgias]

Matthew is accepted by the Church as having been written in Hebrew w/possible Aramaic

That’s not exactly true. It’s a disputed question. Some say “yes” to a Hebrew source to Matthew, while others say “no”.

And even the Greek is a translaltion of Aramaic and Hebrew

And Latin, and Greek.

The point is that the Greek is the source of the New Testament books.

We couldn’t have access to Scripture without translations.

Umm… not quite true. We have copies of copies of the originals, and we have access to them.