When does it happen?

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Ite_ad_Ioseph

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On a website where the the Melkite Catholic DL is posted on the internet each week, during the anaphora (canon) the priest says THIS IS MY BODY and THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD…
After this, he then blessed the gifts saying, May you turn these into the body and blood of Christ. Do the Eastern Churches teach that this, the second instance, is when the gifts are transubstantiated?
This would mean us Romans are wrong. I know the case of the DL of Mari and Addai (no words of institution at all). It appears to my brain somebody is wrong… or is somebody?
Pax
 
Also, it would be great if someone could tell me why the Melkites use the Gospel of the Epiphany on Christmas on Christmas.
Pax
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
On a website where the the Melkite Catholic DL is posted on the internet each week, during the anaphora (canon) the priest says THIS IS MY BODY and THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD…
After this, he then blessed the gifts saying, May you turn these into the body and blood of Christ. Do the Eastern Churches teach that this, the second instance, is when the gifts are transubstantiated?
This would mean us Romans are wrong. I know the case of the DL of Mari and Addai (no words of institution at all). It appears to my brain somebody is wrong… or is somebody?
Pax
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Neither is wrong. The purpose of the Eucharistic prayer is to actualize the Real Presence. This happens in either case, and in either case, the Faithful are fully fed by the Body and Blood of Christ.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
The Byzantine Church does not celebrate Epiphany. We celebrate the Nativity of Christ on Dec 25 on which we celebrate his Birth and Adoration by the Magi. On Jan 6 we celebrate Theophany, his Baptism. The Latins on the otherhand seperate the Adoration by the Magi from the Nativity and celebrate that on Epiphany. This is due to the fact that originally the East celebrated Christ’s Nativity, Adoration by the Magi, and Baptism all on one day, Jan 6. The same was done in the West but on Dec 25. Soon both Churches adopted the other’s feast. The East adopted Dec 25 and moved the celebration of the Nativity and Adoration of the Magi to that day. The West adopted Jan 6 and moved the celebration of Adoration of the Magi and Baptism to that day, later moving the Baptism to the Sunday after Jan 6.

Also if you attend Great Vespers and Liturgy of St. Basil on Christmas Eve you will hear St. Luke’s Gospel and the Adoration by the Shepherds. St. Matthew’s Gospel is read Christmas morning.

Fr. Deacon Lance
 
**
Also, it would be great if someone could tell me why the Melkites use the Gospel of the Epiphany on Christmas on Christmas.
Pax**

**It’s not just the Melkites; it’s all Byzantine Churches.

The real question you should be asking yourself is why the Roman Church uses the Gospel of Pascha (John 1) on Christmas.

As for whether the it’s the Words of Institution or Epiclesis, they are two parts of the same prayer. It’s like asking, “Which is the essential clause of the Our Father?”**
 
The Traditional Roman Rite, at least, celebrates four masses of Christmas
  1. Vigil
  2. Midnight Mass Titus 2:11-15 Luke 2:1-14
  3. Mass at dawn Titus 3:4-7 Luke 2:15-20
  4. Day Mass Hebrews 1:1-12 John 1:1-14
So, the Midnight Mass is considered most important. The birth narrative of Luke is read there.
Pax
 
The byzantine teaching is approximately* We don’t know for certain when the transubstatiation occurs, but we know that having both the epiclesis and the narrative insures it does by the end of the latter of the two.* (paraphrase based upon Schmemman.) Further, it helps if both are explicit.

One of the Orthodox complaints of the Roman liturgy is that the epiclesis isn’t as explicit, and is before the narrative.

One syriac consecration lacks an explicit institution narrative (but supposedly has an implicit narrative).
 
What Aramis says about Byzantine teaching also holds true in general for the Syriac Churches.

Due to Latin influences, there are several schools of thought on this, but the main point is that transubstantiation occurs during the Anaphora: at which exact place (or moment) in the Anaphora is not all that important since the Anaphora is considered a unit. In the West Syriac tradition, it is comprised of 3 major parts: the Preface (addressed to the Father), the Institution Narrative (addressed to the Son) and the Epiklesis (addressed to the Holy Spirit) and it is not to be divided up.

The East Syriac Anaphora of Ss Addai & Mari is the one that, in the original redaction (as used by the Assyrian Church of the East), lacks an explicit Institution Narrative, yet the Sacrament is valid. (The same Anaphora is used by the Chaldean Church, but an Institution Narrative was added in, I believe, the 16th century, at the time of union.)
 
**The Traditional Roman Rite, at least, celebrates four masses of Christmas
  1. Vigil
  2. Midnight Mass Titus 2:11-15 Luke 2:1-14
  3. Mass at dawn Titus 3:4-7 Luke 2:15-20
  4. Day Mass Hebrews 1:1-12 John 1:1-14
So, the Midnight Mass is considered most important. The birth narrative of Luke is read there.**

**If you mean the “Vigil Mass” as understood in modern useage, that is as an anticipated mass on the evening of the 24th, this is NOT traditional.

In the TLM, the Christmas Eve mass is celebrated in the MORNING of the 24th, and it’s not considered a Mass of Christmas.

The Roman tradition of three Masses on Christmas is referred to by St. Leo, so it must be pretty old.

While the Midnight Mass might be the most popular one from the point of view of the congregation, the DAY mass with John 1 is actually the most important liturgically. Thomas Merton referred to this mass as being the one celebrated potifically by the abbot. **
 
bpbasilphx said:
**The Traditional Roman Rite, at least, celebrates four masses of Christmas
  1. Vigil
  2. Midnight Mass Titus 2:11-15 Luke 2:1-14
  3. Mass at dawn Titus 3:4-7 Luke 2:15-20
  4. Day Mass Hebrews 1:1-12 John 1:1-14
So, the Midnight Mass is considered most important. The birth narrative of Luke is read there.**

**If you mean the “Vigil Mass” as understood in modern useage, that is as an anticipated mass on the evening of the 24th, this is NOT traditional.

In the TLM, the Christmas Eve mass is celebrated in the MORNING of the 24th, and it’s not considered a Mass of Christmas.

The Roman tradition of three Masses on Christmas is referred to by St. Leo, so it must be pretty old.

While the Midnight Mass might be the most popular one from the point of view of the congregation, the DAY mass with John 1 is actually the most important liturgically. Thomas Merton referred to this mass as being the one celebrated potifically by the abbot. **
Click to expand...
Maybe I have information wrong, I believed the Vigil Mass fulfilled the requirement to attend Mass on Christmas.
My lack of knowledge of Thomas Merton makes me ask who he is. I read form various articles the Midnight Mass celebrates the birth of Jesus, the dawn Mass would celebrate the arrival of the shepherds.
 
Maybe I have information wrong, I believed the Vigil Mass fulfilled the requirement to attend Mass on Christmas.
My lack of knowledge of Thomas Merton makes me ask who he is. I read form various articles the Midnight Mass celebrates the birth of Jesus, the dawn Mass would celebrate the arrival of the shepherds.

**In modern Roman discipline, a Vigil Mass celebrated on the late afternoon or evening of 24 December fulfills the Christmas obligation.

But keep in mind that “Vigil of Christmas” is the TLM name for 24 December, and until relatively recent times, this mass was celebrated in the morning of the 24th.

Thomas Merton, religious name Fr. Mary Louis OCSO, was a Trappist writer.

The Midnight Christmas Mass was often called “Mass of the Angels” and the dawn mass “Mass of the Shepherds”, but the DAY mass was still the most important, with the Gospel from John 1.**
 
bpbasilphx said:
Maybe I have information wrong, I believed the Vigil Mass fulfilled the requirement to attend Mass on Christmas.
My lack of knowledge of Thomas Merton makes me ask who he is. I read form various articles the Midnight Mass celebrates the birth of Jesus, the dawn Mass would celebrate the arrival of the shepherds.

**In modern Roman discipline, a Vigil Mass celebrated on the late afternoon or evening of 24 December fulfills the Christmas obligation.

But keep in mind that “Vigil of Christmas” is the TLM name for 24 December, and until relatively recent times, this mass was celebrated in the morning of the 24th.

Thomas Merton, religious name Fr. Mary Louis OCSO, was a Trappist writer.

The Midnight Christmas Mass was often called “Mass of the Angels” and the dawn mass “Mass of the Shepherds”, but the DAY mass was still the most important, with the Gospel from John 1.**
Click to expand...
Interesting. I like John 1, it gets into perspective the Divinity of the Child in the Manger. Not only the birth of the Son of God, but the birth of God the Son.
Merry Christmas season to everyone.
 
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