When Does Mass Finish

[Phemie]

Coming from a Protestant background originally, and attending my wife’s Baptist church on about a monthly basis, I am struck by the difference in attitude to music. Her Baptist Church will have about 3 or 4 songs at the beginning, and a full song at the end, plus at least one in the middle somewhere. Then there’ll be coffee afterwards, and people stop and talk.

While I find the beginnings a bit over the top, Catholics go the other way. Two verses in, two verses out, with a song during communion, with everybody moving out the door ASAP, down to the car park and off…

Then we wonder why the Protestants leave us for dead in evangelising.

The difference is that in the Protestant tradition the hymn is an end in itself. At Mass, the 4-hymn sandwich accompanies actions (processions) and can be omitted without problems. The only time at Mass that we might sing a hymn as an end in itself is after Communion and we usually have the choir sing alone instead of having the communal hymn the GIRM requires.

 

[maryjk]

I think you just answered your own question.

At our parish, if there are 5 verses, we sing all 5 verses. As you said, it’s a prayer.

Imagine if we were singing a song like:

V1: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.
V2: Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
V3: Holy Mary, Mother of God
V4: Pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.

If each verse was a line long, your example might make sense. Instead each verse is more like 20 lines long.

Annnnd, we only sang the first 2 verses because that’s all the time Fr. X needed to get down the aisle. In fact, by the time we got to “fruit” we’ve already closed our hymnals and are tripping over ourselves to put on coats and genuflect our way out of the pew.

I think it is interesting that you can only see people staying for the entirety of 5 verses or people tripping over themselves to get out of the door. It isn’t just black and white. Some people are more than willing to stay until Father has left. Then will stop singing (Father isn’t singing either), then in a normal fashion, pick up their belongings, put on their coat, gather their children and walk out. No one pushing or tripping. Just leaving the Sanctuary in a calm fashion.

The prayer as composed is incomplete! It won’t shave that many seconds off your life to finish it out! We’ve already deflected our attention from worshipping God in Christian community and put it right back on ourselves!

Or, imagine a family dinner. Leaving right after receiving communion is like taking a cookie and running for the door. Bolting right after you were dismissed from the table is permissible, but visibly selfish. Sticking around to finish up conversations and offering to help clear the table is the polite and proper thing to do.

Again with the bolting. No one is bolting.

No one is leaving right after Communion. Your comment was about my post, and I said leaving after Father has left. So, people are leaving because the head of the table has left. We walk into another room to finish conversations. Partly because conversation in the Sanctuary, is a no-no.

 

[HoneyBea]

lol This thread cracks me up and reminds of Pope Francis comments about “obsessing”.

I did however learn a lot reading this thread, but nothing more than what my common sense & manners already tell me.

 

[FrDavid96]

Coming from a Protestant background originally, and attending my wife’s Baptist church on about a monthly basis, I am struck by the difference in attitude to music. Her Baptist Church will have about 3 or 4 songs at the beginning, and a full song at the end, plus at least one in the middle somewhere. Then there’ll be coffee afterwards, and people stop and talk.

While I find the beginnings a bit over the top, Catholics go the other way. Two verses in, two verses out, with a song during communion, with everybody moving out the door ASAP, down to the car park and off…

Then we wonder why the Protestants leave us for dead in evangelising.

That’s just not a fair assessment. Many Catholic parishes have gatherings after Mass. They’re not obligatory (no, they’re not in the GIRM), but we cannot say that they do not exist.

Also, Catholics socialize in many other ways, and have different ways of being a community outside of the context of Mass. The Knights of Columbus is a good example here. It’s an exclusively, and uniquely, Catholic organization (unlike the Masons, even though there are similarities on the surface). Catholics do socialize (as Catholics) and we do a lot of it.

We Catholics simply have different models of community socialization than other faiths. These methods can change and adapt, and they do.

However, to reduce the Catholic sense of community to one simple question “what do they do at the end of the worship service?” is entirely inadequate.

 

[EasterJoy]

…I think it is interesting that you can only see people staying for the entirety of 5 verses or people tripping over themselves to get out of the door. It isn’t just black and white. Some people are more than willing to stay until Father has left. Then will stop singing (Father isn’t singing either), then in a normal fashion, pick up their belongings, put on their coat, gather their children and walk out. No one pushing or tripping. Just leaving the Sanctuary in a calm fashion…

To clarify: I don’t want to say that it is wrong if someone asks us on behalf of the choir to stick around for the closing song. I object to someone saying that “Church documents remind us” when there isn’t a single one that does any such thing.

Had the liturgist merely said this, I would not have a problem with it: Our parish typically sings a closing song during the recessional. We ought not expect the choir to sing the closing song alone. All parishioners are asked to join in with the closing song until they have either left the church or else the song is over. If you don’t know the closing song well enough to keep singing it as you leave the church, please stay in your pew where you can use the music book to help you with the words. Having said that, I would really appreciate it if the music director would choose songs for the recessional that are either well-known or easy to learn.

It is the teaching of something as part of the rubrics when it is no such thing that bothered me. I also would like an acknowledgment that there is a certain amount of indulgence being asked when people are being asked to do something after they have been dismissed. Getting abusive about it and implying that other people are rude because you’ve chosen a five-verse song when something shorter could have been chosen instead is a bit rich. If the “composer” couldn’t come up with a song that makes perfect sense when you aren’t singing all the verses, choose a different piece!!

The National Anthem, for instance, has four verses! Are we committing some great sacrilege or insulting the composer because we only ever sing one? Is it insulting to ask the musicians to notice when Father has left the church, using that as a cue to end the song or switch to instrumental music, so the people can leave?

 

[Ohana]

Well, I like to stay until the last “song” ends. I think it is called the recessional really, and ideally is a hymn that calls us to carry the Mass we have just attended out to the world. I would really not like to leave before the priest, deacon and entourage reach the narthex.

Plus, a few more minutes in church singing to the glory of God is not a bad way to be in community a few more minutes, and thank Jesus for his sacrifice and the privilege of being able to attend.

We all must occasionally leave Mass early - sick child, spouse, etc. I just don’t think we should dash out the door at the first opportunity.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well, I like to stay until the last “song” ends. I think it is called the recessional really, and ideally is a hymn that calls us to carry the Mass we have just attended out to the world. I would really not like to leave before the priest, deacon and entourage reach the narthex.

Plus, a few more minutes in church singing to the glory of God is not a bad way to be in community a few more minutes, and thank Jesus for his sacrifice and the privilege of being able to attend.

We all must occasionally leave Mass early - sick child, spouse, etc. I just don’t think we should dash out the door at the first opportunity.

Just to clarify: I do not want to say that anyone ought to essentially jump into the recessional procession ahead of the priest. I am not discourage anyone from joining in the concluding song in its entirety. IMHO, it is praiseworthy to do that. It is praiseworthy, for that matter, to stay after that for adoration and/or recitation of the rosary. What better time?

No, I only wanted to confirm that the liturgist crossed into inaccuracy by this contention:
“The liturgical documents of the Church remind us that Mass is concluded when the last song is ended.” No, they don’t. Do not say they do–the end you want does not justify that means.

It could have been said that it is praiseworthy to stay, it could have been said that the choir and the pastor ardently request that everyone does stay…any number of things might have been said to encourage people to stick around to sing the concluding song. I just do not like it when somebody advocates for what they think is praiseworthy by claiming that liturgical documents make this praiseworthy thing an obligation.

I also really don’t like it when people presume to tack things on that are not obligatory and then claim that those who don’t want to indulge their way of doing things are rude. It is like when someone shows up at your door uninvited or stays after a dinner party after your bedtime. Yes, you ought to be gracious and hospitable, of course you should, but it is over the top to say that *you’re *the only one to blame if you aren’t! IMHO, to have a five verse closing song and to imply that anyone who doesn’t stick around for all five verses is the only one who is oblivious of the feelings of others is over the top!

 

[Elizium23]

Fr. Z opines that the recessional is part of Mass.

Certainly after the “Deo Gratias” the ministers must venerate the altar and leave the sanctuary. This seems to be codified as part of Mass in the Ordinary Form.

 

[bcuster]

Sometimes I think our choir would like Mass to end when the last song ends. Especially the times they sing all 5 verses of a song, three of them sung after the priest leaves.

To me, at least, it can’t be any clearer than saying “The Mass has ended.”

This is true.
Another question is: When is it appropriate to leave after Mass? Our pastor states that he should be the first to exit the building because he is the Shepherd who leads the sheep out of danger. It is his job to make sure all our safe as we leave the Church and enter again into the world. I don’t know if this is part of the regulations, but I like it.

 

[trevblum650]

Canonically speaking when the celebrant says “The Mass has ended, go in peace” and leaves the building, you may then respectfully exit AFTER him. The priest should be the first to leave. However I usually remain respectfully standing either in prayer of thaksgiving for havibg recieved the Eucharist or pray an Act of Contrition as said Eucharist just cleansed my venial sins etc etc util the last song has ended- and that is out of my oqn resect for our choir however liturgically speaking is not neccessary. Something that IS quite offensive no matter what is when people leave the Church in droves after recieving the Eucharist. It takes all my concentration not to GLARE at them as they leave while Father is issuing his priestly blessing upon us and giving the church announcements. I mean that is just plain rude.

 

[Ohana]

Just to clarify: I do not want to say that anyone ought to essentially jump into the recessional procession ahead of the priest. I am not discourage anyone from joining in the concluding song in its entirety. IMHO, it is praiseworthy to do that. It is praiseworthy, for that matter, to stay after that for adoration and/or recitation of the rosary. What better time?

No, I only wanted to confirm that the liturgist crossed into inaccuracy by this contention:
“The liturgical documents of the Church remind us that Mass is concluded when the last song is ended.” No, they don’t. Do not say they do–the end you want does not justify that means.

It could have been said that it is praiseworthy to stay, it could have been said that the choir and the pastor ardently request that everyone does stay…any number of things might have been said to encourage people to stick around to sing the concluding song. I just do not like it when somebody advocates for what they think is praiseworthy by claiming that liturgical documents make this praiseworthy thing an obligation.

I also really don’t like it when people presume to tack things on that are not obligatory and then claim that those who don’t want to indulge their way of doing things are rude. It is like when someone shows up at your door uninvited or stays after a dinner party after your bedtime. Yes, you ought to be gracious and hospitable, of course you should, but it is over the top to say that *you’re *the only one to blame if you aren’t! IMHO, to have a five verse closing song and to imply that anyone who doesn’t stick around for all five verses is the only one who is oblivious of the feelings of others is over the top!

Gotcha! I really need to read back to the beginning before commenting. I don’t like being guilted when there is no cause either.