When does one become a Catholic?

[jmcrae]

Which isn’t all that comforting since “it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Or at least according to Pope Boniface VIII.

Yes - but at the same time, we can’t be found culpable of sins we weren’t aware of committing, either. Not that ignorance is a means of salvation, but if someone were to live a perfect life in every respect except for not being a visible member of the Church, and simply had no idea that such a thing was either possible or necessary, they could avoid damnation.

Of course, without the Church to teach and guide us, the chances of living a perfect life are vanishingly small. But the possibility does exist, at least in theory. (In practice, it’s not something I’d be willing to bet my soul on.)

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Which isn’t all that comforting since “it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Or at least according to Pope Boniface VIII.

People can be subject implicitly. Keep in mind Feeneyism was condemned by the Church.

 

[mattkubes]

People can be subject implicitly. Keep in mind Feeneyism was condemned by the Church.

Feeneyism didn’t concern “subjection of desire,” but I’m dissapointed to see that you’ve resorted to one of the usual CAF scare tactics

Sorry, it won’t work on me.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Feeneyism didn’t concern “subjection of desire,” but I’m dissapointed to see that you’ve resorted to one of the usual CAF scare tactics

Sorry, it won’t work on me.

Scare tactic?

 

[Swiss_Guy]

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.

romancatholicism.org/feeney-condemnations.htm

 

[mattkubes]

Scare tactic?

Yes, vaguely accusing someone of Feeneyism, or sedevacantism, or (Heaven forbid) SSPX sympathy instead of addressing a clear traditional teaching directly. It’s quite common here.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Feeneyism didn’t concern “subjection of desire,” but I’m dissapointed to see that you’ve resorted to one of the usual CAF scare tactics

Sorry, it won’t work on me.

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.

romancatholicism.org/feeney-condemnations.htm

 

[mattkubes]

romancatholicism.org/feeney-condemnations.htm

St Bellarmine has a great discussion comparing Church membership and the different aspects of communion with Christ’s Church. The terms aren’t interchangeable and the statement on this site is using more precise language than it may appear.

Still, that may have appeared in a condemnation of Fr Feeney’s position, but it isn’t one of the main points of Feeneyism as it is described today. His arguments chiefly concerned a positive argument for a strict interpretation of EENS, not a denial that some apparent heretics/schismatics might maybe possibly somehow be extraordinarily united to Christ’s Church. Maybe.

And all I said was that it’s still worrying to leave people in that state since clear and concise Church teaching tells us that subjection to the Roman Pontiff is absolutely necessary for salvation. Your posts seemed to imply an unhealthy level of comfort for people remaining in “imperfect communion” with Rome as long as there was a possibility that they might be mystically subjected to Peter. We don’t even know that that happens, only that it is a possibility.

 

[PJM]

=mattkubes;9012589]Which isn’t all that comforting since “it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Or at least according to Pope Boniface VIII.

Hi Matt; you’re statement is almost the entire truth

Here is what we TEACH:

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

754 "The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ. It is also the flock of which God himself foretold that he would be the shepherd, and whose sheep, even though governed by human shepherds, are unfailingly nourished and led by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and Prince of Shepherds, who gave his life for his sheep.

**846 **How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? ***Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: ***
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I came into the Catholic Church last Easter. If anyone tells me that I wasn’t a Catholic before then I would have no problem with what they are saying.

I desired to be Catholic before then–I don’t know how Jesus would have judged me if I had died with that desire–all I know is that I sure am glad that I’m in the Catholic Church now.

Does anyone know the answer?

 

[mattkubes]

PJM,

That’s fine and dandy, but invincible ignorance is a theological proposition, not a guarantee. It’s impossible for us to tell who has no fault in their not knowing the Truth of Christ’s Church. It’s impossible to know what graces these people have accepted or rejected. It’s impossible for us to know that they have perfect charity in their hearts and perfect contrition for their sins - but keep in mind that’s it’s difficult enough for those who frequent the Sacraments to even achieve this. This is likely almost non-existent apart from the ordinary means of salvation.

For this reason, charity demands that we call all of these people to conversion and common sense dictates that we don’t presuppose a mystical union with Christ’s Church that seems nearly impossible to achieve. Those paragraphs are fine - so long as we don’t interpret them as veiled (or even not-so-veiled) universalism.

 

[PJM]

=Jerry-Jet;9014866]I came into the Catholic Church last Easter. If anyone tells me that I wasn’t a Catholic before then I would have no problem with what they are saying.

I desired to be Catholic before then–I don’t know how Jesus would have judged me if I had died with that desire–all I know is that I sure am glad that I’m in the Catholic Church now.

Does anyone know the answer?

Hi Jerry,

Without doubt all salvation FLOWS TRHOUGH the CC. If one is in the proecess of entering into our communion; God would accept that as sufficient evidence and would make salvation POSSIBLE to such a person. God is JUST, and Merciful, so God accepts ones desire to come HOME to Him.

God Bless,
Pat