When does our fear of God become a phobia?

[Robert_Sock]

Sometimes I tremble in fear, like today, but usually I try to be brave and have faith. Just how much we should fear God, and under what circumstances, seems to be vaguely discussed. For those of you who happen not to truly fear God, consider the following passage from *The Imitation of Christ: *

YOU thunder forth Your judgments over me, Lord. You shake all my bones with fear and trembling, and my soul is very much afraid. I stand in awe as I consider that the heavens are not pure in Your sight. If You found wickedness in the angels and did not spare them, what will become of me? Stars have fallen from heaven, and I – I who am but dust – how can I be presumptuous? They whose deeds seemed worthy of praise have fallen into the depths, and I have seen those who ate the bread of angels delighting themselves with the husks of swine.

What do you personally consider a “healthy” fear of God?

LOVE!

 

[DBT]

Robert, you seem such a kind-hearted and sensitive soul! Please don’t let passages like this weigh you down. Healthy fear (ie respect) and trust in His mercy need to go hand in hand. When times get hard for me, I find it most helpful to surrender to Mercy … to approach Him as a child would his father. Or a baby resting in his mother’s arms.

I know you to be quite active on contemplative threads. Perhaps a quick teaching from St. John of the Cross could be helpful at troubling times: do your best to banish from your heart all that draws you away from the loving presence of God in your life. Even spiritual readings/studies if they rob you of peace. As St. Teresa says: let nothing disturb you.

Many blessings to you,
Dave

 

[Sarcelle]

Sometimes I tremble in fear, like today, but usually I try to be brave and have faith. Just how much we should fear God, and under what circumstances, seems to be vaguely discussed. For those of you who happen not to truly fear God, consider the following passage from *The Imitation of Christ: *

YOU thunder forth Your judgments over me, Lord. You shake all my bones with fear and trembling, and my soul is very much afraid. I stand in awe as I consider that the heavens are not pure in Your sight. If You found wickedness in the angels and did not spare them, what will become of me? Stars have fallen from heaven, and I – I who am but dust – how can I be presumptuous? They whose deeds seemed worthy of praise have fallen into the depths, and I have seen those who ate the bread of angels delighting themselves with the husks of swine.

What do you personally consider a “healthy” fear of God?

LOVE!

Personally I consider fear of God to be reverence and awe.

You know I used to have dreams were God appeared to me in the form of.the ocean. A stormy ocean, sometimes a calm one. The stormy one with its large waves frightened me but also filled me with awe. I think this is what is meant by fear of the Lord.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert, you seem such a kind-hearted and sensitive soul! Please don’t let passages like this weigh you down. Healthy fear (ie respect) and trust in His mercy need to go hand in hand. When times get hard for me, I find it most helpful to surrender to Mercy … to approach Him as a child would his father. Or a baby resting in his mother’s arms.

I know you to be quite active on contemplative threads. Perhaps a quick teaching from St. John of the Cross could be helpful at troubling times: do your best to banish from your heart all that draws you away from the loving presence of God in your life. Even spiritual readings/studies if they rob you of peace. As St. Teresa says: let nothing disturb you.

Many blessings to you,
Dave

Thanks. Like the Saint John Paul the Great states: “Be not afraid.” OTOH, I still feel that some degree of fear is necessary for contemplation.

The beginning of wisdom is fear of G-d
– Proverbs 1:7

The way I see things, there has got to be a good balance between our viewing God as LOVE and a God capable of great wrath. Today, for me, I felt obligated to focus on the latter.

LOVE!

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Well, fear is a natural effect of the virtue of faith as St. Thomas Aquinas said.

It is written (James 2:19): “The devils . . . believe and tremble.”

I answer that, Fear is a movement of the appetitive power, as stated above (I-II, 41, 1). Now the principle of all appetitive movements is the good or evil apprehended: and consequently the principle of fear and of every appetitive movement must be an apprehension. Again, through faith there arises in us an apprehension of certain penal evils, which are inflicted in accordance with the Divine judgment. On this way, then, faith is a cause of the fear whereby one dreads to be punished by God; and this is servile fear.

It is also the cause of filial fear, whereby one dreads to be separated from God, or whereby one shrinks from equalling oneself to Him, and holds Him in reverence, inasmuch as faith makes us appreciate God as an unfathomable and supreme good, separation from which is the greatest evil, and to which it is wicked to wish to be equalled. Of the first fear, viz. servile fear, lifeless faith is the cause, while living faith is the cause of the second, viz. filial fear, because it makes man adhere to God and to be subject to Him by charity.

newadvent.org/summa/3007.htm#article1

Now if you analyze those words carefully, it means that the fear of the Lord caused by a “living faith” leads to a diminishing fear towards God, and an increasing fear towards things that can separate you from Him. Remember that quote from the Bible that you quoted before? “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love” (1 John 4:18).

When your love for God has increased, the thing that you will fear the most is yourself, because it is only your sin that can separate you from Him. Nothing else would you be afraid of:

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, “For thy sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:35-39

If you read St.Philip Neri’s short prayers, you will find this fear of oneself that is the height of the fear of the Lord:

My Jesus, do not trust in me.

My Jesus, I have told thee that if Thou dost not help me, I shall never do any good.

Do not trust in me, my Jesus, because I shall never do any good.

What can I do, my Jesus, to do Thy will?

I have never loved Thee, and I wish to love Thee, my Jesus.

My Jesus, if Thou dost not uphold me, I shall fall.

I shall never love Thee if Thou dost not help me, my Jesus.

My Jesus, I wish to do nothing but thy most holy will.

O my Jesus, grant that I may never offend Thee.

My Jesus, if Thou wouldst have me, clear away all the hindrances which keep me from Thee.

I do not know Thee, my Jesus.

I distrust myself, but I trust in Thee, my Jesus.

Give me the grace, my Jesus, not to love Thee out of fear, but out of love.

“The Word was made flesh” to free us from the flesh.

I no longer know what to do or say, if Thou help me not, my Jesus.

For Thy most holy passion’s sake “remember not, Lord, my iniquities.”

And when we get to heaven, this fear will be wiped away, because we will not need faith there. This is the “perfect love” that 1 John 4:18 is saying.

Hope this helps.

 

[InLight247]

There is a difference between fear of the Lord and phobia to the Lord. Fear of the Lord is to admit God is God and we are the creatures. It admits the complete sovereign of God over our lives. The fear of the Lord keeps us away from sin. Contemplation naturally implements the fear of the Lord into one’s deep being. Out of the love for God, the contemplative will not commit a sin on purpose, no matter how venial the sin is. It wounds his heart when he commits a sin due to his weakness. He feels bad not because of phobia, but because sin hurts the loving relationship with his Beloved.

Phobia, by definition means an extreme or irrational fear.

In our contemplative relationship with God, even when we have fallen into temptation, we still can trust the loving relationship. We can proceed like a baby resting in his mother’s arms (like Dave said).

Contemplation is all about love. There is no fear in love. True love expels all fears.

 

[Robert_Sock]

+JMJ+

Well, fear is a natural effect of the virtue of faith as St. Thomas Aquinas said.

It is written (James 2:19): “The devils . . . believe and tremble.”

I answer that, Fear is a movement of the appetitive power, as stated above (I-II, 41, 1). Now the principle of all appetitive movements is the good or evil apprehended: and consequently the principle of fear and of every appetitive movement must be an apprehension. Again, through faith there arises in us an apprehension of certain penal evils, which are inflicted in accordance with the Divine judgment. On this way, then, faith is a cause of the fear whereby one dreads to be punished by God; and this is servile fear.

It is also the cause of filial fear, whereby one dreads to be separated from God, or whereby one shrinks from equalling oneself to Him, and holds Him in reverence, inasmuch as faith makes us appreciate God as an unfathomable and supreme good, separation from which is the greatest evil, and to which it is wicked to wish to be equalled. Of the first fear, viz. servile fear, lifeless faith is the cause, while living faith is the cause of the second, viz. filial fear, because it makes man adhere to God and to be subject to Him by charity.

newadvent.org/summa/3007.htm#article1

Now if you analyze those words carefully, it means that the fear of the Lord caused by a “living faith” leads to a diminishing fear towards God, and an increasing fear towards things that can separate you from Him. Remember that quote from the Bible that you quoted before? “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love” (1 John 4:18).

When your love for God has increased, the thing that you will fear the most is yourself, because it is only your sin that can separate you from Him. Nothing else would you be afraid of:

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, “For thy sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:35-39

If you read St.Philip Neri’s short prayers, you will find this fear of oneself that is the height of the fear of the Lord:

My Jesus, do not trust in me.

My Jesus, I have told thee that if Thou dost not help me, I shall never do any good.

Do not trust in me, my Jesus, because I shall never do any good.

What can I do, my Jesus, to do Thy will?

I have never loved Thee, and I wish to love Thee, my Jesus.

My Jesus, if Thou dost not uphold me, I shall fall.

I shall never love Thee if Thou dost not help me, my Jesus.

My Jesus, I wish to do nothing but thy most holy will.

O my Jesus, grant that I may never offend Thee.

My Jesus, if Thou wouldst have me, clear away all the hindrances which keep me from Thee.

I do not know Thee, my Jesus.

I distrust myself, but I trust in Thee, my Jesus.

Give me the grace, my Jesus, not to love Thee out of fear, but out of love.

“The Word was made flesh” to free us from the flesh.

I no longer know what to do or say, if Thou help me not, my Jesus.

For Thy most holy passion’s sake “remember not, Lord, my iniquities.”

And when we get to heaven, this fear will be wiped away, because we will not need faith there. This is the “perfect love” that 1 John 4:18 is saying.

Hope this helps.

I take what you said to heart. Thank you!

Maybe just an illusion, but it appears as though fear is painted differently in the Old and New Testaments. For whatever reason, I tend to focus on the picture painted in the Old Testament. Did the Israelites get punished quite harshly for what appears to me to be inadvertent disobedience (the Israelites seem to have been punished as a group due to the poor report from a few scouts)?

I have a great fear of God, but I also have a great love toward Him in my heart. I feel as though God has me under His wings.

LOVE!

 

[Robert_Sock]

There is a difference between fear of the Lord and phobia to the Lord. Fear of the Lord is to admit God is God and we are the creatures. It admits the complete sovereign of God over our lives. The fear of the Lord keeps us away from sin. Contemplation naturally implements the fear of the Lord into one’s deep being. Out of the love for God, the contemplative will not commit a sin on purpose, no matter how venial the sin is. It wounds his heart when he commits a sin due to his weakness. He feels bad not because of phobia, but because sin hurts the loving relationship with his Beloved.

Phobia, by definition means an extreme or irrational fear.

In our contemplative relationship with God, even when we have fallen into temptation, we still can trust the loving relationship. We can proceed like a baby resting in his mother’s arms (like Dave said).

Contemplation is all about love. There is no fear in love. True love expels all fears.

Thanks!

I wholeheartedly agree on the distinction rational and irrational fear, but it’s all intellectual until God’s wrath comes upon us. What appears to be an irrational fear to one person, may seem to be a rational fear to another. Was Arron and Miriam underestimating God’s wrath when they spoke out against Moses? Did they lack LOVE? My hunch is that they did not. My gut feeling is that Miriam was of high stature and therefore more harshly punished.

LOVE!

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Sometimes I tremble in fear, like today, but usually I try to be brave and have faith. Just how much we should fear God, and under what circumstances, seems to be vaguely discussed. For those of you who happen not to truly fear God, consider the following passage from *The Imitation of Christ: *

YOU thunder forth Your judgments over me, Lord. You shake all my bones with fear and trembling, and my soul is very much afraid. I stand in awe as I consider that the heavens are not pure in Your sight. If You found wickedness in the angels and did not spare them, what will become of me? Stars have fallen from heaven, and I – I who am but dust – how can I be presumptuous? They whose deeds seemed worthy of praise have fallen into the depths, and I have seen those who ate the bread of angels delighting themselves with the husks of swine.

What do you personally consider a “healthy” fear of God?

LOVE!

Just my :twocents: is this passage is what I personally would consider “unhealthy” fear for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Before Jesus, that was probably a realistic view. Everyone was a sinner, sinners were condemned, so there wasn’t much to look forward to except wondering how scared they were at any given moment.

After Jesus came, He taught us how to pray and love each other and stuff – and access the love in our hearts in conjunction with the Holy Spirit for guidance. Running scared of a bunch of rules we may break at any given moment isn’t compatible with the peace of Christ, or the fruit of the spirit.

 

[Anglewannabe]

Personally I consider fear of God to be reverence and awe.

.

I read something to that effect (might have been a protestant book, but I did find it to be the most comforting definition

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

I take what you said to heart. Thank you!

You’re welcome

Maybe just an illusion, but it appears as though fear is painted differently in the Old and New Testaments. For whatever reason, I tend to focus on the picture painted in the Old Testament. Did the Israelites get punished quite harshly for what appears to me to be inadvertent disobedience (the Israelites seem to have been punished as a group due to the poor report from a few scouts)?

Have you seen a topographical map which shows Israel’s position in the Middle East?

http://greek-language.com/bible/palmer/04egypttomesopotamia.jpg

To the west of Israel is the Mediterranean Sea. To the east is a mountain range with stark desert on the other side. Israel is right smack in the only land route between the very rich empires of Egypt and Mesopotamia, and it is also fertile land. It is a land “flowing with milk and honey”…and it was also already settled when the Israelites returned to it from Egypt. Those who lived there knew how rich in produce and trade their home was, and they would defend it fiercely. A people who had grown complacent being slaves who longed for “the fish…cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic” (Numbers 11:5) in Egypt would not be able to conquer it, if the scouts who came there were to be judged. But a generation of people toughened by wandering in the desert their whole lives could, especially with God on their side.

That is the reason God did not let the generation who left Egypt get into Canaan: the whole nation would get slaughtered. Even in His anger, God is truly loving and merciful.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Borrowing from the Tanya, I view the love and fear of God to be two wings of a bird. The more developed each is, the higher and further the bird can fly. But with just one or the other, the bird becomes grounded.

LOVE!

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Just because someone has my life in their hands, is enough to “fear” them in at least a respectful sort of way.

Like if there is a cop sitting at the table next to me, I know he has a gun and could kill me within two seconds of deciding that I should die. If I can sit there and no be panicky, then I should be able to be in “fear” of God without being anxious and paranoid about it.

Plus I should feel confident that the police officer is not someone who is going to kill me just because I sneeze or make an error figuring the tip. Like being constantly aware that I “must be doing something to anger him” at any given point in time.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Just because someone has my life in their hands, is enough to “fear” them in at least a respectful sort of way.

Like if there is a cop sitting at the table next to me, I know he has a gun and could kill me within two seconds of deciding that I should die. If I can sit there and no be panicky, then I should be able to be in “fear” of God without being anxious and paranoid about it.

Plus I should feel confident that the police officer is not someone who is going to kill me just because I sneeze or make an error figuring the tip. Like being constantly aware that I “must be doing something to anger him” at any given point in time.

Yes, again, there must be a healthy balance between our love for God and our fear of Him.

I just got done watching The Way of the Cross, by Saint Francis of Assisi (youtube.com/watch?v=yLlKkWw_wjI), and I once again I tremble in fear. The fact is clear as can be: This world is a dangerous place without God’s protection. I actually pray that I never forget my fear, or my love; for without either of them, I’m in great danger here in my exile. Let us pray and LOVE one another!

LOVE!

PS And in the back of my mind this morning is the urge (temptation?) to build a powerful, new computer. What a crazy world this is!

 

[fred_conty]

… do your best to banish from your heart all that draws you away from the loving presence of God in your life. Even spiritual readings/studies if they rob you of peace.

A very worthwhile thought…" Even spiritual readings/studies if they rob you of peace."

You are such a lover of God, so let our dear Lord point out things to you when he sees fit in his on time. And in the meantime, read about the virtues and develop the good things he gives us to think about.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.