When does personhood begin?

[buc_fan33]

While I certainly think that an embryo is a human person, I think we have to be very careful to not posit things the Church has not said or defined. Dignitatis Personae 5 says, “The human embryo has, therefore, from the very beginning, the dignity proper to a person.”

I remember my seminary moral theology professor saying explicitly that this is NOT the same thing as saying the embryo IS a person. However, he noted, it does effectively MEAN the same thing.

 

[JimG]

While I certainly think that an embryo is a human person, I think we have to be very careful to not posit things the Church has not said or defined. Dignitatis Personae 5 says, “The human embryo has, therefore, from the very beginning, the dignity proper to a person.”

I remember my seminary moral theology professor saying explicitly that this is NOT the same thing as saying the embryo IS a person. However, he noted, it does effectively MEAN the same thing.

Sounds like something a theology professor might say! Saying this is not the same as saying that. However, they both effectiveily mean the same thing!

In any case, I believe that the Church considers that every human being is by the very fact of being human endowed with the aspect of personhood. Being a human person has nothing to do with awareness or state of development. It has to do with the fact that one is a distinct individual of the human species. And new human beings begin at conception.

 

[Softly]

When does the personhood of identical twins begin?

 

[davidv]

When does the personhood of identical twins begin?

Person is a synonym of human being. Therefore, identical twins become persons when they become human beings.

 

[jmcrae]

When does the personhood of identical twins begin?

The second twin becomes an independent person at the moment s/he differentiates from the first.

 

[Newbie2]

From conception.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/dignity_of_man_from_conception_until_natural_death_is_primary_says_pope/

Peace,
Ed

From conception. You have different human DNA. It is not only theological but scientific…

When does the personhood of identical twins begin?

The second twin becomes an independent person at the moment s/he differentiates from the first.

Methinks it would be more correct to say that in the case of identical twins, they become distinct, individual persons when they separate from each other…under normal circumstances. It begs the following questions, however:

1. So a singleton becomes a human person before twins do,chronologically, as in the moment of conception vs. the moment of separation?
2. And how does that affect the notion of personhood in conjoined twins?

 

[Moore11]

The second twin becomes an independent person at the moment s/he differentiates from the first.

Bolding mine:

I think the word independant here is not a small adjective. One can and should still use the argument that the seperate DNA from the mother Should have “personhood” status (whatever that is…)

 

[jmcrae]

Bolding mine:

I think the word independant here is not a small adjective. One can and should still use the argument that the seperate DNA from the mother Should have “personhood” status (whatever that is…)

I was assuming that to be the case, in my argument.

 

[jmcrae]

Methinks it would be more correct to say that in the case of identical twins, they become distinct, individual persons when they separate from each other…under normal circumstances. It begs the following questions, however:

1. So a singleton becomes a human person before twins do,chronologically, as in the moment of conception vs. the moment of separation?
2. And how does that affect the notion of personhood in conjoined twins?

Conjoined twins are sufficiently differentiated; they are two persons - not one person with two heads.

Although if there were only one head and two of everything else, we would only count one person.

 

[catholicanne]

It’s always a baby. Those terms are developmental.

Just like we describe a person as newborn/toddler/child/adolescent/adult/elderly, but they are still a human person the whole time. The pre-born child is a human person through all stages of pre-natal development. They have a unique set of human DNA, and a soul.

God Bless

Excellent answer!

 

[spes_salvi]

The second twin becomes an independent person at the moment s/he differentiates from the first.

I agree. First, there’s a single celled zygote who is only one person, then it divides into more cells until the the parts of twin A separates so that half of his parts become an entirely different person twin B. So twin A became a person first, then twin B followed later.

In the case of conjoined twins, if the parts of twin A divided enough so that twin B differentiates sufficiently to form independent nervous systems, then it is only then that twin B starts to exist. There can never be a point from fertilization where no person exists because all persons were set (mechanisms and functions are already fixed in place for development) to become persons beginning from fertilization, hence marking his/her beginning.

This is somewhat parallel to organ transplant. When one’s kidney is severed and transplanted to another person, it is assumed to become a part of another person. Similarly, when parts of twin A separates during development to become independent, maybe this is when God infuses another soul to become twin B.

I thought of this because I imagined if there was a way to artificially separate a multi-celled zygote to make artificial twinning, then twinning could be a property only imposed on the outside to a growing zygote. Thus, formerly, the zygote only had the property to develop as single person (only one soul) but when artificially separated, only then did it gain capacity to become two persons (two souls). On the other hand, if twinning could only occur on growing zygotes that had the capacity for twinning from the start, then the growing zygote may have had a composite of two souls from the start, each probably governing corresponding to different divisions from the developing portions of the zygote.

This is the way I see it, but I haven’t studied philosophy so pls correct me if i’m wrong.

 

[jimmy]

Person-hood is an equivocation created by pro-abortionists to deflect from the fact that abortion kills a human being. (I know of no instance when a pregnant woman gave birth to anything other than a human baby) A new human life begins at conception, a scientific fact taught up until it became politically unpopular. When we change the conversation to speak of “persons” many other issues are raised, including euthanasia for the old and infirm. Stick with life, and don’t let other terms be a distraction.

The worst are those pesky men who participated in the council of Chalcedon. They had the nerve to focus on the concept of the person. The nerve that some people have.

 

[Newbie2]

Conjoined twins are sufficiently differentiated; they are two persons - not one person with two heads.

Although if there were only one head and two of everything else, we would only count one person.

I was thinking of earlier on in development.

 

[jmcrae]

I was thinking of earlier on in development.

Identical twins begin as one person, and then become two people when the second separates from the first.

Just as, if someone were to clone you, the clone would be a separate person who began to exist at the moment they were cloned; not before that.

 

[Newbie2]

Not so sure that is a widely accepted explanation in Catholic Moral theology. Could be so, makes sense, but it seems to be one of those grey areas.

 

[clem456]

A distinct physical and spiritual human being exists at conception. And if that’s not enough to give you a sense of awe and respect, consider this:

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you",

God’s will for his own unique creation is in place before we humans even think about cooperating with it. That ought to give us pause to stop and have some reverential fear for the sanctity of human life, rather than dispute at what point we’d like to reverence it.