When does Sunday end?

[FrDavid96]

Respectfully disagree. I believe [user]Vico[/user] has it right:

tee

Well, I believe the Catholic Church has it right.

There’s no doubt that Solemnities begin the evening before. Liturgical laws, and the Church’s practice are extremely clear on this. There’s no doubt of it except by a couple of posters here on CAF who keep repeating that misinformation.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Well, I believe the Catholic Church has it right.

There’s no doubt that Solemnities begin the evening before. Liturgical laws, and the Church’s practice are extremely clear on this. There’s no doubt of it except by a couple of posters here on CAF who keep repeating that misinformation.

Let us take the example of Sunday as Solemnity.

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

If, as you assert, a Solemnity is a superextended day, and Solemnities begin in the evening at the time of First Vespers, then isn’t the evening of the preceding day to the Sunday Solemnity Friday evening!?

tee

 

[FrDavid96]

Let us take the example of Sunday as Solemnity.

If, as you assert, a Solemnity is a superextended day, and Solemnities begin in the evening at the time of First Vespers, then isn’t the evening of the preceding day to the Sunday Solemnity Friday evening!?

tee

You’re playing word games. Anyone can plainly see that.

 

[tee_eff_em]

With continued respect

You’re playing word games. Anyone can plainly see that.

If you say so. Plenty of people on this forum and elsewhere claim that Solemnities are longer than 24 hours and the day of the Solemnity begins at first vespers.

To me, the canon does not expressly say so, as I would expect per Canon 202.

tee
But I Am Not A Canon Lawyer

 

[FrDavid96]

With continued respect

If you say so. Plenty of people on this forum and elsewhere claim that Solemnities are longer than 24 hours and the day of the Solemnity begins at first vespers.

To me, the canon does not expressly say so, as I would expect per Canon 202.

tee
But I Am Not A Canon Lawyer

If one looks to the liturgical norms of the Church (especially the General Instruction for the calendar, which is a part of the Roman Missal) it’s extremely obvious that Solemnities begin with First Vespers.

If the idea that Solemnities do not begin with First Vespers is true, then the entire Latin Rite of the Church seriously misunderstands the Church’s liturgical norms—maybe because they haven’t read the (handful of) posters at CAF who think differently.

The liturgical day of Sunday begins at First Vespers of Sunday which is celebrated on Saturday evening.

St John Paul II certainly understood it. See Dies Domini #49. w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1998/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini.html

 

[dans0622]

A recent, scholarly article on the topic is: *The Canonical Day and the Liturgical Day… *by Fr. R. Bona, in The Jurist, 74/2, (2014), pp. 353-398.

In a section on the topic it hand, he concludes:

In summary, according to the *ius vigens *(i.e., current law) the general norm found in canon 202.1 still applies for the computation of a Sunday. Therefore, Sunday (or a solemnity) is still computed from midnight to midnight. As the word *celebratio *in the norms on the liturgical year indicates, it is only the liturgical celebration that is extended to the evening of the preceding day (pp. 385-386).

Dan

 

[FrDavid96]

A recent, scholarly article on the topic is: *The Canonical Day and the Liturgical Day… *by Fr. R. Bona, in The Jurist, 74/2, (2014), pp. 353-398.

In a section on the topic it hand, he concludes:

Dan

That’s what the term “Liturgical Day” means.

If I write a letter on parish letterhead, or I write a parish check, or I record a burial in the parish register, or I sign pre-marital investigation forms with a couple, I use the midnight-to-midnight method of computing a day. No kidding.

When it comes to liturgical matters, I follow the liturgical day, which (for solemnities) begins in the evening.

Why this is so difficult for you to understand, I cannot fathom.

I am beginning to think that your only purpose is to be argumentative for its own sake because I cannot imagine any reason why you would be so adamantly opposed to the idea of a liturgical day.

 

[dans0622]

That’s what the term “Liturgical Day” means.

If I write a letter on parish letterhead, or I write a parish check, or I record a burial in the parish register, or I sign pre-marital investigation forms with a couple, I use the midnight-to-midnight method of computing a day. No kidding.

When it comes to liturgical matters, I follow the liturgical day, which (for solemnities) begins in the evening.

Why this is so difficult for you to understand, I cannot fathom.

I am beginning to think that your only purpose is to be argumentative for its own sake because I cannot imagine any reason why you would be so adamantly opposed to the idea of a liturgical day.

Hello,

For everyone following the thread, I provided a quote from a recent, pertinent, scholarly article, that’s all. I thought it would be a worthy addition to the discussion.

I don’t know why you think I am having difficulty in understanding something or am “adamantly opposed to the idea of a liturgical day.”

Dan

 

[Vico]

If one looks to the liturgical norms of the Church (especially the General Instruction for the calendar, which is a part of the Roman Missal) it’s extremely obvious that Solemnities begin with First Vespers.

If the idea that Solemnities do not begin with First Vespers is true, then the entire Latin Rite of the Church seriously misunderstands the Church’s liturgical norms—maybe because they haven’t read the (handful of) posters at CAF who think differently.

The liturgical day of Sunday begins at First Vespers of Sunday which is celebrated on Saturday evening.

St John Paul II certainly understood it. See Dies Domini #49. w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1998/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini.html

The celebration begins on some days with Evening Prayer I, but the liturgical day remains midnight to midnight as promulgated in the the last liturgical calendar. It is much easier in the Byzantine Catholic liturgical calendar which, following the practice of the Athenian day, is evening to evening, rather than the Roman day midnight to midnight.

14 FEBRUARY 1969 ** I. The Liturgical Day in General**
3. Each day is made holy through the liturgical celebrations of the people of God, especially through the eucharistic sacrifice and the divine office.
The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWLITYR.HTM

From 2005, **Proposition 30, "Dies Domini"Although Saturday afternoon belongs already to Sunday (First Vespers), and it is permitted to fulfill the Sunday obligation with the pre-festive Mass, it is necessary to remember that it is the day of Sunday in itself which must be sanctified so that there is no “void of God.” Source: http://biblelight.net/star.gif ** The Synod of Bishops on the Eucharist, held in Rome, Oct. 2-23, 2005. __________________

 

[ProVobis]

However, the liturgical day of Solemnities is not from midnight to midnight. That approach is contrary to the Church’s liturgical laws. Solemnities begin in the evening at the time of First Vespers.

If this is true, then you have a 32-hr (?) window for the Saturday or Monday obligation and a 32-hr window for the Dies Domini obligation, with an 8-hr overlap period.

Perhaps this might be better demonstrated with Venn Diagrams.

 

[FrDavid96]

If this is true, then you have a 32-hr (?) window for the Saturday or Monday obligation and a 32-hr window for the Dies Domini obligation, with an 8-hr overlap period.

…

Assuming that there is such an obligation on Saturday or Monday (which, of course happens but not often), then yes, that’s true.

 

[FrDavid96]

The celebration begins on some days with Evening Prayer I, but the liturgical day remains midnight to midnight as promulgated in the the last liturgical calendar. It is much easier in the Byzantine Catholic liturgical calendar which, following the practice of the Athenian day, is evening to evening, rather than the Roman day midnight to midnight.

14 FEBRUARY 1969 ** I. The Liturgical Day in General**
3. Each day is made holy through the liturgical celebrations of the people of God, especially through the eucharistic sacrifice and the divine office.
The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWLITYR.HTM

From 2005, **Proposition 30, "Dies Domini"Although Saturday afternoon belongs already to Sunday (First Vespers), and it is permitted to fulfill the Sunday obligation with the pre-festive Mass, it is necessary to remember that it is the day of Sunday in itself which must be sanctified so that there is no “void of God.” Source: http://biblelight.net/star.gif ** The Synod of Bishops on the Eucharist, held in Rome, Oct. 2-23, 2005. __________________

You keep insisting that your own “midnight to midnight” rule for determining a liturgical day was promulgated.

No such thing happened.

If what you say is true, then there is no such thing as a liturgical day. If every liturgical day were from midnight to midnight, then such days would always necessarily follow the calendar days, and there would be no reason for the Church to even speak of “liturgical days”—such a term would be a distinction without a difference. We would have a term in the Church’s vocabulary which serves no legitimate purpose, but exists only to confuse. The Church doesn’t operate that way.

Most liturgical days follow the calendar day of midnight to midnight. Solemnities are the exception to this: their liturgical days begin the evening-before, as promulgated in every liturgical norm issued by the Church.

 

[Vico]

You keep insisting that your own “midnight to midnight” rule for determining a liturgical day was promulgated.

No such thing happened.

If what you say is true, then there is no such thing as a liturgical day. If every liturgical day were from midnight to midnight, then such days would always necessarily follow the calendar days, and there would be no reason for the Church to even speak of “liturgical days”—such a term would be a distinction without a difference. We would have a term in the Church’s vocabulary which serves no legitimate purpose, but exists only to confuse. The Church doesn’t operate that way.

Most liturgical days follow the calendar day of midnight to midnight. Solemnities are the exception to this: their liturgical days begin the evening-before, as promulgated in every liturgical norm issued by the Church.

This it the first time I used the term promulgated. The current edition of the Missal is Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia from 2002. Emended in 2008 for the Vigil of Pentecost.

The USCCB Calendar for 2015 states:The calendar is based upon the General Roman Calendar, promulgated by Pope Paul VI on February 14, 1969, subsequently amended by Pope John Paul II , and the Proper Calendar for the Dioceses of the United States of America, approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. This calendar has been updated to reflect the names and titles of the various liturgical days in conformity with the Roman Missal, Third Edition.
The General Norms for the Liturgical Year (February 14, 1969) referred to above, show that the celebration or observance of a liturgical day sometimes begins on the prior day, (and is consistent with the wording of the canon law): Chapter I-a. Liturgical Days
** I. The Liturgical Day in General

     **         3. Each day is made holy through the liturgical celebrations of the         people of God, especially through the eucharistic sacrifice and the         divine office.
     The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance         of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.

1. Solemnities are counted as the principal days in the calendar and their observance begins with evening prayer I of the preceding day. Some also have their own vigil Mass for use when Mass is celebrated in the evening of the preceding day.
   The celebration of Easter and Christmas, the two greatest solemnities, continues for eight days, with each octave governed by its own rules.
2. Feasts are celebrated within the limits of the natural day and accordingly do not have evening prayer I. Exceptions are feasts of the Lord that fall on a Sunday in Ordinary Time and in the Christmas season and that replace the Sunday office.

 

[ProVobis]

Perhaps we are mixing terminologies here.

From the 1998 Domini Dies issued by Pope JP II (I presume for the universal Church)
Ad liturgicam consuetudinem enim dies festus incipit eiusmodi Sacris Vespertinis.

translated as

“From a liturgical point of view, in fact, holy days begin with First Vespers.”

One can perhaps argue this is not a good translation (for one thing it is singular in the Latin, plural in the English) but the gist is that liturgically First Vespers begins the festivity.

 

[Vico]

Perhaps we are mixing terminologies here.

From the 1998 Domini Dies issued by Pope JP II (I presume for the universal Church)
Ad liturgicam consuetudinem enim dies festus incipit eiusmodi Sacris Vespertinis.

translated as

“From a liturgical point of view, in fact, holy days begin with First Vespers.”

One can perhaps argue this is not a good translation (for one thing it is singular in the Latin, plural in the English) but the gist is that liturgically First Vespers begins the festivity.

The footnote for that refers to (88) Cf. Missale Romanum, Normae Universales de Anno Liturgico et de Calendario, 3.

So looking at 3, but from the (four years) later third typical, edition:I. De die liturgico in genere
3. Unusquisque dies sanctificatur liturgicis populi Dei celebrationibus, praesertim vero sacrificio eucharistico et Officio divino.
Dies liturgicus decurrit a media nocte ad mediam noctem. Celebratio vero dominicae et sollemnitatum incipit iam vespere diei praecedentis.

binetti.ru/collectio/liturgia/missale_files/deanno3ed.htm

 

[ProVobis]

So is there a contradiction, or does JPII statement clarify the footnote?

Or are you saying or hinting the footnote was put in as an afterthought 4 years later?

 

[Vico]

So is there a contradiction, or does JPII statement clarify the footnote?

Or are you saying or hinting the footnote was put in as an afterthought 4 years later?

Saint John Paul II approved the Missale Romanum in 2002, the editio typica tertia, four years after 1998 Domini Dies.

 

[ProVobis]

So you’re saying a liturgical day today is as good as a calendar day, since it’s defined the same?

 

[Vico]

So you’re saying a liturgical day today is as good as a calendar day, since it’s defined the same?

If the civil calendar used in the location is midnight to midnight then yes. For useage of day, see the table of precedence rules, for example:11. Solemnities are counted as the principal days in the calendar and their observance begins with Evening Prayer I of the preceding day. Some also have their own vigil Mass for use when Mass is celebrated in the evening of the preceding day.

1. The celebration of Easter and Christmas, the two greatest solemnities, continues for eight days, with each octave governed by its own rules.
2. Feasts are celebrated within the limits of the natural day and accordingly do not have Evening Prayer I. Exceptions are feasts of the Lord that fall on a Sunday in Ordinary Time and in the Christmas season**(“General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar”)] and that replace the Sunday office. R2]
3. Memorials are either obligatory or optional. Their observance is integrated into the celebration of the occurring weekday in accord with the norms set forth in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal and the Liturgy of the Hours.c]
4. If several celebrations fall on the same day, the one that holds the highest rank according to the preceding Table of Liturgical Days is observed. But a solemnity impeded by a liturgical day that takes precedence over it should be transferred to the closest day not listed in nos. 1-8 in the table of precedence; the rule of no. 5 remains in effect. Other celebrations are omitted that year.m]R14] 61. If the same day were to call for celebration of Evening Prayer of that day’s office and Evening Prayer I of the following day, Evening Prayer of the day with the higher rank in the Table of Liturgical Days takes precedence; in cases of equal rank, Evening Prayer of the actual day takes precedence.R15]

 

[FrDavid96]

If the civil calendar used in the location is midnight to midnight then yes. For useage of day, see the table of precedence rules, for example:11. Solemnities are counted as the principal days in the calendar and their observance begins with Evening Prayer I of the preceding day. Some also have their own vigil Mass for use when Mass is celebrated in the evening of the preceding day.

1. The celebration of Easter and Christmas, the two greatest solemnities, continues for eight days, with each octave governed by its own rules.
2. Feasts are celebrated within the limits of the natural day and accordingly do not have Evening Prayer I. Exceptions are feasts of the Lord that fall on a Sunday in Ordinary Time and in the Christmas season**(“General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar”)] and that replace the Sunday office. R2]
3. Memorials are either obligatory or optional. Their observance is integrated into the celebration of the occurring weekday in accord with the norms set forth in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal and the Liturgy of the Hours.c]
4. If several celebrations fall on the same day, the one that holds the highest rank according to the preceding Table of Liturgical Days is observed. But a solemnity impeded by a liturgical day that takes precedence over it should be transferred to the closest day not listed in nos. 1-8 in the table of precedence; the rule of no. 5 remains in effect. Other celebrations are omitted that year.m]R14] 61. If the same day were to call for celebration of Evening Prayer of that day’s office and Evening Prayer I of the following day, Evening Prayer of the day with the higher rank in the Table of Liturgical Days takes precedence; in cases of equal rank, Evening Prayer of the actual day takes precedence.R15]

You keep insisting that a liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, and you do this by quoting the very norms that show that a liturgical day sometimes begins at midnight and sometimes begins in the evening…It’s been quite puzzling to me.

Reading your last few posts, I finally realized the issue.

You don’t understand what the term “liturgical day” actually means.

You keep trying to defend something without first understanding it.

The term “liturgical day” refers to that period of time (approximately one day, but sometimes as long as 8 calendar days) in which the Church celebrates a given feast or other commemoration.

The time-period of a liturgical day does not always match with a calendar day because it does not need to match, and indeed sometimes it should not do so.

Realizing that the two kinds of days do not always correspond, the Church uses the term “liturgical day” to distinguish that time-period from a day as it appears in the calendar (ie midnight to midnight).

At first, I thought you were just denying that such a thing as a liturgical day exists, but re-reading your posts here made me realize that the real issue is that you don’t understand what the term itself means.