When does the Holy Spirit enter into us?

[NotWorthy]

There’s a debate going on in our adult class as to when does God enter into us. It seems when we receive Sanctifying Grace, such as in Baptism, that the Holy Trinity enters into our soul. This seems to be explained in Catechism #1999.

But someone told me that Vatican II explains that God is within us from the moment of conception.

Can anyone help me out here?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

There’s a debate going on in our adult class as to when does God enter into us. It seems when we receive Sanctifying Grace, such as in Baptism, that the Holy Trinity enters into our soul. This seems to be explained in Catechism #1999.

But someone told me that Vatican II explains that God is within us from the moment of conception.

Can anyone help me out here?

We receive the Holy Spirit within our soul for the first time in Baptism.

 

[FCEGM]

There’s a debate going on in our adult class as to when does God enter into us. It seems when we receive Sanctifying Grace, such as in Baptism, that the Holy Trinity enters into our soul. This seems to be explained in Catechism #1999.

But someone told me that Vatican II explains that God is within us from the moment of conception.

Can anyone help me out here?

God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is present (where One Person is present there are the Others) to every soul as Creator, maintaining the soul in existence. Through Baptism, however, He raises the soul to intimate and transforming friendship by the power of the Holy Spirit through the merits of Christ Jesus. Thus the soul’s relationship to God is no longer just creature to Creator, but child to Father.

 

[bibleapologist]

We receive the Holy Spirit within our soul for the first time in Baptism.

May I ask, what is it in a person that prompts that person to submit to the commandment to be baptized?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

If a person who isn’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit “before” baptism gets baptized, what was it that enlightened them to the commandment, and empowered them to act in a righteous manner?

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[John_Henry]

If a person who isn’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit “before” baptism gets baptized, what was it that enlightened them to the commandment, and empowered them to act in a righteous manner?

BA, you already know the Catholic answer to that question from our dance last week. The answer, simply, is grace.

 

[NotWorthy]

For those of us who didn’t dance last week with John and BA, are you talking about habitual graces?

 

[NotWorthy]

Thanks for the responses. I’m still a little concerned, because our priest referenced a Vatican II document that claims God already exists in our soul at birth (yes, where there is One, there is Three), but maybe just not at the level of indwelling as when we are in a state of Sanctifying Grace.

I plan on asking my priest, but I won’t be seeing him for a few days, and I’d like to have my facts straight before I do.

Thanks again!

 

[John_Henry]

For those of us who didn’t dance last week with John and BA, are you talking about habitual graces?

BA has issues with Catholic teaching in general, and with her teaching on conversion in particular. And no, I am not speaking of habitual grace, which is sanctifying grace. I am speaking of actual graces:

Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification. (CCC 2000)

and:

Baptism…makes the neophyte…a temple of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1265)

Thanks for the responses. I’m still a little concerned, because our priest referenced a Vatican II document that claims God already exists in our soul at birth (yes, where there is One, there is Three)

The first and most obvious thing is to ask for the reference, saying you want to learn more about this presence of God in our soul at conception or birth.

 

[mercygate]

BA, you already know the Catholic answer to that question from our dance last week. The answer, simply, is grace.

That is, *actual grace, *a different thing from *sanctifying grace. *

Look here.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

May I ask, what is it in a person that prompts that person to submit to the commandment to be baptized?

If a person who isn’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit “before” baptism gets baptized, what was it that enlightened them to the commandment, and empowered them to act in a righteous manner?

John
www.gideonsword.net

God’s “Actual” Grace which causes a soul to turn toward and seek God.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

For those of us who didn’t dance last week with John and BA, are you talking about habitual graces?

Habitual Grace or Sanctifying Grace and the Holy Spirit cannot reside in a soul in the presence of Original Sin.

 

[Elzee]

Habitual Grace or Sanctifying Grace and the Holy Spirit cannot reside in a soul in the presence of Original Sin.

I see your point, but what then, is it that causes the unbaptized to turn to God?

Or, what about the some non-denominational members who obviously love Jesus, preach the Gospel, etc. but who haven’t yet been baptized because they believe it’s only a symbol so put it off for several months or years after they ‘accept Jesus’ and vow to follow Him?

Can the Holy Spirit influenceand impact someone without abiding in him?

 

[John_Henry]

I see your point, but what then, is it that causes the unbaptized to turn to God?

Or, what about the some non-denominational members who obviously love Jesus, preach the Gospel, etc. but who haven’t yet been baptized because they believe it’s only a symbol so put it off for several months or years after they ‘accept Jesus’ and vow to follow Him?

Can the Holy Spirit influenceand impact someone without abiding in him?

The unbaptized turn to God through actual grace. Peruse the posts further up this thread for more on that. Thus, the Holy Spirit can and does influence soemone without abiding in him. Furthermore, the Church states the possibility of non-Catholic Christians being saved. No one can enter heaven without sanctifying grace. Consequently, the Church holds that non-Catholic Christians can possess sanctifying grace and be indwelled by the HS. In the case of a non-Catholic Christian who was not baptized, I presume this would fall under the implicit desire for baptism and the assumption that the person was acting out of ignorance of the full truth regarding baptism.

 

[Elzee]

The unbaptized turn to God through actual grace. Peruse the posts further up this thread for more on that. Thus, the Holy Spirit can and does influence soemone without abiding in him. Furthermore, the Church states the possibility of non-Catholic Christians being saved. No one can enter heaven without sanctifying grace. Consequently, the Church holds that non-Catholic Christians can possess sanctifying grace and be indwelled by the HS. In the case of a non-Catholic Christian who was not baptized, I presume this would fall under the implicit desire for baptism and the assumption that the person was acting out of ignorance of the full truth regarding baptism.

Thank you.

 

[bibleapologist]

BA, you already know the Catholic answer to that question from our dance last week. The answer, simply, is grace.

JH, your right. I do know the Catholic answer to that question. But, I think you left our dance before the end of the prom.

I don’t mean to drive the subject into the ground, and I certainly don’t mean to pester you, but it is a very important subject… and this is an apologetics forum.

Is there a way on these forums to hold an organized debate?

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[John_Henry]

JH, your right. I do know the Catholic answer to that question. But, I think you left our dance before the end of the prom.

That’s a good one.

 

[jemfinch]

May I ask, what is it in a person that prompts that person to submit to the commandment to be baptized?

Grace.

If a person who isn’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit “before” baptism gets baptized, what was it that enlightened them to the commandment, and empowered them to act in a righteous manner?

Grace.

By what rationale do you insist that all God’s dispensation of grace must be preceded by an indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

And, lest it be forgotten, not all who were healed by Jesus made the request themselves, and not all who are healed by baptism into Jesus have made that request themselves. But we can argue age-restrictive baptism in some other thread

Jeremy

 

[jemfinch]

Is there a way on these forums to hold an organized debate?

The closest you’ll get is the standard “Quote everything the person says and make your counterarguments.” The organization of the debate depends on you, not on any enforcement of the rules.

Jeremy

 

[bibleapologist]

The closest you’ll get is the standard “Quote everything the person says and make your counterarguments.” The organization of the debate depends on you, not on any enforcement of the rules.

Jeremy

I agree with you, I thought a more concrete conclusion could be drawn from a moderated debate with time limits and a definitive end.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[jemfinch]

I agree with you, I thought a more concrete conclusion could be drawn from a moderated debate with time limits and a definitive end.

No real point, in my opinion. I see a thirst for (verbal or written) debates to be a sign of weakness in an apologist’s argument: debates are nearly always won or lost based on the charisma and knowledge of the debators, and not on the strength or weakness of the arguments being made.

I’d much rather have a complete, total discussion of an issue with no time limits, than have time limits impose an arbitrary restriction on the ability of people to make their arguments in full.

Jeremy