When does the Lord's day start?

[Tamsulosin]

What if the work you do at the office on weekday is not perhaps considered “manual work” ,but computer work,and after having fulfilled your mass obligation on Sunday, you go to the office to complete some work becuse you had fallen behind and need to catch up before new work arrives on Monday. Not being "manual work"is it still a sin.?
I have not confessed this, since I thought it was ok.

 

[The_Prodigal]

FWIW, Father Groeschel once addressed this matter on his EWTN show. His point was that many Catholic educators (including priests and religious) through the years have graded tests and prepared lessons on Sundays, and they did not sin in this because it was intellectual, not manual labor.

 

[Kathrin]

FWIW, Father Groeschel once addressed this matter on his EWTN show. His point was that many Catholic educators (including priests and religious) through the years have graded tests and prepared lessons on Sundays, and they did not sin in this because it was intellectual, not manual labor.

I would say if it is work for the church or Sunday school it is work for the Lord anyway.

 

[dans0622]

Hello everyone,

Regarding the question of work on the Lord’s Day, the present Code of Canon Law says we “are to abstain from such work or business that would inhibit the worship to be given to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s Day, or the due relaxation of mind and body” (c. 1247).

The 1917 Code spoke of “servile works” and other kinds of work, too, like buying and selling and other things (c. 1248). The 1983 Code is less specific but gives the general principle. No work is automatically excluded from the prohibition.

Of course, if it is strictly necessary to do some particular work, even “servile,” on a Sunday or Holy Day, we have to do it… Have to milk the cows and clean the barn everyday, as the dairy farmers are well aware. But, we shouldn’t readily invoke necessity and excuse ourselves from this obligation since this is a divine law we are trying to observe.

Dan

 

[Kathrin]

Ok, I am still confused as to whether I am allowed to do work (like household, for example) on Saturday evening after mass.

 

[Digitonomy]

Ok, I am still confused as to whether I am allowed to do work (like household, for example) on Saturday evening after mass.

You had it right in post #9.

Liturgically the day begins at 4pm or so. Canonically, the day begins at midnight.

FrDavid was pretty vague in what he was actually trying to say. As I read it, he was trying to pastorally provide cover for those who choose to conform their canonical practice to their spiritual and liturgical practice. In other words, you could choose to go to mass at 4pm, and then refrain from servile work Saturday night and most of Sunday, but go off to dig ditches at 8pm Sunday.

I would agree this is reasonable, even though not explicitly permitted in the canons. However, I don’t think it’s wrong to accept the canons at face value, even though it may interrupt the Lord’s Day liturgically to work on Saturday night.

 

[FrDavid96]

You had it right in post #9.

Liturgically the day begins at 4pm or so. Canonically, the day begins at midnight.

FrDavid was pretty vague in what he was actually trying to say. As I read it, he was trying to pastorally provide cover for those who choose to conform their canonical practice to their spiritual and liturgical practice. In other words, you could choose to go to mass at 4pm, and then refrain from servile work Saturday night and most of Sunday, but go off to dig ditches at 8pm Sunday.

I would agree this is reasonable, even though not explicitly permitted in the canons. However, I don’t think it’s wrong to accept the canons at face value, even though it may interrupt the Lord’s Day liturgically to work on Saturday night.

Actually, what I was trying to address is the misconception that Saturday night is not yet “Sunday.” By quoting Pope John Paul II I was attempting to convey the idea that the Church’s teaching and position has developed over time (or returned to a more ancient reckoning of time might be a better way to phrase that), and that we now understand that Saturday evening/night Mass is no longer viewed as an exception or as an accomodation for people who are unable to attend on Sunday morning. I specifically quoted the text so that readers would understand that this isn’t something I’ve simply “made up.”
Again, here’s the relevant quote:

…From a liturgical point of view, in fact, holy days begin with First Vespers. Consequently, the liturgy of what is sometimes called the “Vigil Mass” is in effect the "festive" Mass of Sunday, at which the celebrant is required to preach the homily and recite the Prayer of the Faithful. (JP II in* Dies Domini*)

In other words, Mass on Saturday evening is in no way “less than” a Mass on Sunday morning. Sunday has already begun (again, read the quote), so these Masses are not “in anticipation of Sunday,” even though many still have the habit of thinking and speaking in those terms. I still occasionally hear the term “anticipated Mass”–but in reality we aren’t “anticipating” Sunday because according to JP II, Sunday has already begun.

If I seemed a little “vague” the reason is that it’s not always easy to define when Evening Prayer I of Sunday actually “occurs” in any given parish. In a monastery this is a simple matter to discern. But in a parish, too many questions are left open. What if the parish does not have a communal celebration of EP I, as is the case in most US parishes? If a particular person attends Mass on Sunday morning (and doesn’t pray the hours), is the time of first Vespers even relevant to that individual? I could envision all sorts of questions which might be raised as to this issue, and I was trying to avoid these questions lest we become pharisaic about the whole matter.

There realy should be no difference between our canonical, spiritual, and liturgical practices. These 3 values should form an integrated whole. We should not look at the canons one way and our liturgical practices another way. My motivation was not to provide “canonical cover” but on the contrary to say that our observance of the canons and our liturgical life should be in harmony not conflict.

I am also concerned that canon 202 is being taken out of context and used for a purpose for which it was not intended. The purpose of that canon is to define for us how days are calculated (for example if a law says “this must happen within 5 days” or something similar), but it is not intended to define our liturgical/spiritual lives, except in the most obvious sense (every week has one Sunday for example). To put it another way, canon 202 does not define what constitutes the “Lord’s Day.”

 

[FrDavid96]

Ok, I am still confused as to whether I am allowed to do work (like household, for example) on Saturday evening after mass.

If you’ve already attended Sunday Mass on Saturday evening (Saturday in the sense of the calendar), then for you Sunday has already begun. The question of “what am I allowed to do?” is realy a matter of asking yourself “by doing this, am I observing the Lord’s Day, and am I obeying the positive command to rest on the Lord’s day?” That’s a question you have to ask yourself according to your own conscience. The interpretation that work which is truly necessary is permitted on the Sabbath goes back to Old Testament times. If an ox falls into a pit on the Sabbath, it’s permitted to work to get it out because that work is necessary. In our own day, what constitutes “necessary” has changed–some people don’t have the ability to avoid working on Sundays (“observe the Sabbath and you’ll find yourself unemployed” makes it nesessary to do the work). Even if we are at our place of employment on Sunday, we still need to “observe” it as the Lord’s Day, but exactly what we do, or do not do, can be very subjective.

The long and short of this is to say that you should observe the Sabbath on Saturday evening after you’ve attended Mass in a way that is no different than how you observe the Sabbath on Sunday afternoon–whatever that might mean for you. Once you’ve attended Mass, the Sabbath has already begun.

 

[Kathrin]

Hm, I asked a priest now, and he said I could work saturday evening.
He did say though that it is also not strictly forbidden to work on Sundays. We were talking more about work in terms of studying. He said the important thing is we make time for mass and prayer.

Thinking now Saturday evening is not like Sunday, I did do some ironing for my me and myMom so she wouldn’t have to do it on Sunday. That was with good intentions though…

Kathrin

 

[The_Prodigal]

Actually, what I was trying to address is the misconception that Saturday night is not yet “Sunday.” By quoting Pope John Paul II I was attempting to convey the idea that the Church’s teaching and position has developed over time (or returned to a more ancient reckoning of time might be a better way to phrase that), and that we now understand that Saturday evening/night Mass is no longer viewed as an exception or as an accomodation for people who are unable to attend on Sunday morning. I specifically quoted the text so that readers would understand that this isn’t something I’ve simply “made up.”
Again, here’s the relevant quote:

…From a liturgical point of view, in fact, holy days begin with First Vespers. Consequently, the liturgy of what is sometimes called the “Vigil Mass” is in effect the "festive" Mass of Sunday, at which the celebrant is required to preach the homily and recite the Prayer of the Faithful. (JP II in* Dies Domini*)

If you’ve already attended Sunday Mass on Saturday evening (Saturday in the sense of the calendar), then for you Sunday has already begun…

Father,

Now I’m confused, too

You quote Pope John Paul II to the effect that when First Vespers is said, the holy day begins. His specification is restricted neither to any particular group of the faithful nor to those who participate in the evening liturgy.

My confusion results from the fact that you introduce a subjective element in your other post; you indicate that for someone who assists at the evening liturgy, the holy day has begun - but only for that person and not for any person who waits until the following day to go to Mass.

If we are to follow the spirit and quite plain meaning of the Pope John Paull II’s words, doesn’t the holy day begin for everyone at EP I?

 

[FrDavid96]

Father,

Now I’m confused, too

You quote Pope John Paul II to the effect that when First Vespers is said, the holy day begins. His specification is restricted neither to any particular group of the faithful nor to those who participate in the evening liturgy.

My confusion results from the fact that you introduce a subjective element in your other post; you indicate that for someone who assists at the evening liturgy, the holy day has begun - but only for that person and not for any person who waits until the following day to go to Mass.

If we are to follow the spirit and quite plain meaning of the Pope John Paull II’s words, doesn’t the holy day begin for everyone at EP I?

Yes, the holy day begins for “everyone” at First Vespers. But when is First Vespers from the point of view of the individual, “everyday” Catholic, most of whom do not pray the Liturgy of the Hours? As I said in the earlier post, in a monastic (or similar) environment, defining First Vespers is simple–it begins when the community celebrates it. Most Catholics don’t live in a community where the Canonical Hours define their daily lives, so how do they know if “now” should be considered Saturday or Sunday? I suggest that if one has been to Mass, then one should continue to consider it to be the Lord’s Day.

If an individual person attends Mass on a Saturday evening with the intent of fulfilling the Sunday obligation, then it necessarily stands to reason that for that person, Sunday has begun. Once we participate in the Sunday Mass, we should consider it to be indeed Sunday. To put it another way, one would not attend Mass at 6:00 PM for Sunday, and then at 7:00 leave church and say “it’s Saturday again, Sunday starts in a few hours.” That just would not make any sense.

What I’m trying to say here is that once a person has begun Sunday by the Liturgy of the Hours, or the Mass, then for that person, Sunday has begun.

This might sound like it doesn’t make any sense but try to look at it from a different, and more “timely” perspective. When do we say that Easter has begun? The Easter Vigil Mass. Before that Mass, it’s still Holy Saturday, once the Mass has begun it’s no longer Holy Saturday but it’s now Easter Sunday. Agreed?

Well, what if one parish has the Vigil Mass at say 8:00 PM, and another parish has the Easter Vigil Mass at 10:00 PM? Would we not say that one’s own perspective on whether or not it is Easter at 9:00 would depend upon that person’s own parish? If person “A” has been to the Vigil Mass and is going home, then it is Easter from his perspective. But if person “B” is getting ready to attend the Vigil, then for him Easter has not yet begun. I suggest that we apply the same kind of thinking to an “everyday” Sunday as well.

Remember that the whole point of this thread is to help someone determine whether or not manual labor should be performed on Saturday night. That whole issue is very subjective. One person’s occupation might be another’s leisure hobby. In deciding whether or not work should be done on Sat. night, I’m saying that the person should look at it from the point-of-view of whether or not the Lord’s Day has actually started for that person. If one has been to a Sunday Mass (or for that matter, prayed First Vespers), then one should consider it to be Sunday rather than to say that Sunday lasted for 1 hour, and then Saturday started back up again, and in a few hours it will be Sunday yet again.

 

[The_Prodigal]

Father,

Thank you.

I wasn’t suggesting that for someone who attends Saturday evening Mass, that after they leave church, for them liturgical time “goes back” to being Saturday until the clock turns midnight. What concerns me about the subjective interpretation you describe here is that the length of a solemnity varies according to when one chooses to participate in the liturgy.

I assist at 1 p.m. on Sundays, normally. In a neighboring parish, their first Sunday Mass is 4 p.m. on Saturdays (outside of daylight savings time). That is a difference of 21 full hours; I just can’t wrap my mind around that!

I find your illustration of the Easter Vigil much easier to comprehend; because really what you describe is time being measured by the liturgical life of the parish as a whole. And that is what I rather inarticulately tried to suggest: that the solemnity of Easter (to develop your example) begins for the entire parish when the Easter Vigil Mass is celebrated, regardles of whether any given individual chooses to assist at that Mass or on Easter Sunday, itself. (Apparently there is no EP I on Easter if I’m reading Christian Prayer correctly.)

It is intellectually unsatisfying to me to think that time is measured subjectively, according to the individual’s preference of when to attend; to me, time (civil, liturgical, or otherwise) ought to be reckoned by an agreed upon standard, regardless of the individual’s particular circumstance. I’m sure the lack of understanding is entirely my own fault.

I almost dare not bring up the issue of when the solemnity ends, and when, therefore, a person may resume their regular weekly work without fear of offending the Lord. I assume after EP II?

 

[The_Prodigal]

We Romans could learn something here from the Eastern Churches - Orthodox and Catholic, who have the tradition of having Vespers on Saturdays. I’d suggest it to my pastor, but he’s already overworked!

 

[FrDavid96]

Father,

Thank you.

I wasn’t suggesting that for someone who attends Saturday evening Mass, that after they leave church, for them liturgical time “goes back” to being Saturday until the clock turns midnight. What concerns me about the subjective interpretation you describe here is that the length of a solemnity varies according to when one chooses to participate in the liturgy.

I assist at 1 p.m. on Sundays, normally. In a neighboring parish, their first Sunday Mass is 4 p.m. on Saturdays (outside of daylight savings time). That is a difference of 21 full hours; I just can’t wrap my mind around that!

I find your illustration of the Easter Vigil much easier to comprehend; because really what you describe is time being measured by the liturgical life of the parish as a whole. And that is what I rather inarticulately tried to suggest: that the solemnity of Easter (to develop your example) begins for the entire parish when the Easter Vigil Mass is celebrated, regardles of whether any given individual chooses to assist at that Mass or on Easter Sunday, itself. (Apparently there is no EP I on Easter if I’m reading Christian Prayer correctly.)

It is intellectually unsatisfying to me to think that time is measured subjectively, according to the individual’s preference of when to attend; to me, time (civil, liturgical, or otherwise) ought to be reckoned by an agreed upon standard, regardless of the individual’s particular circumstance. I’m sure the lack of understanding is entirely my own fault.

I almost dare not bring up the issue of when the solemnity ends, and when, therefore, a person may resume their regular weekly work without fear of offending the Lord. I assume after EP II?

You make some good points. Let’s look at some Greek vocabulary. That language makes a distinction between Chronos and Kyros–both of which mean “time.”

Chronos is the time-of-day (like chronograph). Sunday begins at Midnight no matter what else because that’s when the day begins, by definition.

However, what I’m suggesting is that in looking at the Lord’s Day (not just the day of the week, but the Day of the Lord) we do so in terms of kyros which means “sacred time” or “God’s time”

What I’m suggesting is that Catholics look at the Sabbath rest in terms of Kyros. If “your” Sunday has begun, then “stick with it” Of course, if Sunday has begun in terms of chronos then it is the Lord’s Day regardless of whether one has yet attended Mass or not (so the reverse of what I said would not be applicable).

I do see the problem here that since the entire parish isn’t celebrating first Vespers, there is no way of “establishing” the beginning of Sunday for individual persons. The Easter Vigil Mass is the exception since most of the parish is conscious of this event–so I used that merely to illustrate that one person’s perception might differ from another’s, and to do so in a way that would be easily seen.

Yet the real issue here in this thread is whether or not one should consider Sunday to have started, for the purpose of “observing the Sabbath.” I’m not trying to fiddle with the calendar nor to suggest that we should interpret liturgical norms subjectively. The only reason why this line of reasoning applies is because it is directed at an individual person deciding what to do or not do in the life of that individual. I’m not trying to expand it to anything else. Since the question itself was a rather “personal” and subjective one, I thought that it deserved a personal and subjective response.

Looking forward to responses…

 

[Joe_Kelley]

We Romans could learn something here from the Eastern Churches - Orthodox and Catholic, who have the tradition of having Vespers on Saturdays. I’d suggest it to my pastor, but he’s already overworked!

A celebration of any of the hours can be led by a lay person in the absence of a cleric. Last year I had the sister [DRE] lead Morning Prayer on Holy Thursday and Good Friday. If she hadn’t been available I was probably next in line.

 

[Kathrin]

Yet the real issue here in this thread is whether or not one should consider Sunday to have started, for the purpose of “observing the Sabbath.” I’m not trying to fiddle with the calendar nor to suggest that we should interpret liturgical norms subjectively. The only reason why this line of reasoning applies is because it is directed at an individual person deciding what to do or not do in the life of that individual. I’m not trying to expand it to anything else. Since the question itself was a rather “personal” and subjective one, I thought that it deserved a personal and subjective response.
…

And that response was, if you go to mass saturday night, then “your” Sunday has begun in all other terms too, right? That is, as in observing the Sabbath, as well as in being allowed to break the Lenten fast?

 

[The_Prodigal]

Yet the real issue here in this thread is whether or not one should consider Sunday to have started, for the purpose of “observing the Sabbath.” I’m not trying to fiddle with the calendar nor to suggest that we should interpret liturgical norms subjectively. The only reason why this line of reasoning applies is because it is directed at an individual person deciding what to do or not do in the life of that individual. I’m not trying to expand it to anything else. Since the question itself was a rather “personal” and subjective one, I thought that it deserved a personal and subjective response.

Looking forward to responses…

Understood. Sometimes I don’t catch on that quick. Thanks.

 

[FrDavid96]

And that response was, if you go to mass saturday night, then “your” Sunday has begun in all other terms too, right? That is, as in observing the Sabbath, as well as in being allowed to break the Lenten fast?

I would say yes. That’s my opinion on the matter. I feel that once a person has “begun” to celebrate Sunday then that person should be consistent.

As far as the Lenten fast goes, the Church does not require a person to fast from anything in particular (other than meat on Ash Wed & Fridays as everyone knows). So the typical Catholic practice of “giving up” something for Lent is not a matter of law. It is a “law” which a person makes for himself. As I like to tell people, if you made the law, you can dispense yourself from it. But the real question is not so much “can I break the fast” or “am I exempt from it”? rather the real question is “do I want to?” If you’ve given up something for Lent, that’s a goal you have set for yourself. You get to define what that goal might be. Fasting from something particular during Lent (whether it’s giving up candy or living on bread & water) is between you and God. What “promise” did you make?

 

[FrDavid96]

Understood. Sometimes I don’t catch on that quick. Thanks.

Well, I wasn’t exactly clear in what I was trying to say. It took some comments and questions to realize that people might interpret the words I wrote a little differently than what I intended to say.

 

[The_Prodigal]

A celebration of any of the hours can be led by a lay person in the absence of a cleric. Last year I had the sister [DRE] lead Morning Prayer on Holy Thursday and Good Friday. If she hadn’t been available I was probably next in line.

You are right, of course, but I was thinking specifically of EP I.

On the other hand, the parish priest is required to say the prayers anyway. He might as well say them with the congregation.

However, many parishes schedule confessions for Saturday immediately before Mass. Which makes me wonder just when those priests are saying EP I !