When does the Pope ever do an Eastern Divine Liturgy, and when can we expect it to be done again?

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I saw a video of John Paul II doing one at Saint Peter’s. I also saw pictures of John XXIII doing one. How often have the Popes done this, and do we know of when it would happen again in the future?
 
PazzoGrande said:
I saw a video of John Paul II doing one at Saint Peter’s. I also saw pictures of John XXIII doing one. How often have the Popes done this, and do we know of when it would happen again in the future?
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As far as I’m aware Pope JPII was present at a DL at St. Peters but did not celebrate it. I could be wrong. In my opinion the Pope should celebrate only in the Latin Rite, and leave the Eastern Liturgies to the Easterners. The Pope celebrating in the Eastern Rites seems to me to reduse the Divine Liturgy to just a “funny mass”. The Divine Liturgy should be celebrated by Eastern priests and bishops who live within its traditions.

So as far as I’m concerned I hope we NEVER see the Pope celebrating the Divine Liturgy.

Just my 2 cents. 🙂
 
ciero said:
As far as I’m aware Pope JPII was present at a DL at St. Peters but did not celebrate it. I could be wrong. In my opinion the Pope should celebrate only in the Latin Rite, and leave the Eastern Liturgies to the Easterners. The Pope celebrating in the Eastern Rites seems to me to reduse the Divine Liturgy to just a “funny mass”. The Divine Liturgy should be celebrated by Eastern priests and bishops who live within its traditions.

So as far as I’m concerned I hope we NEVER see the Pope celebrating the Divine Liturgy.

Just my 2 cents. 🙂
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John Paul II apparently celebrated at least one
youtube.com/watch?v=5LQDaRZKzU0
 
The pope is unique in that he is the only priest among Catholics that has omni-ritual faculties. In other words, he has the authority to celebrate a Mass or Divine Liturgy of ANY rite he so chooses. For practical reasons, however, this rarely happens. John Paul II celebrated two Ukrainian Byzantine rite Divine Liturgies, and on another thread it mentions that Pope Pius XI celebrated an Italo-Greek Byzantine rite Divine Liturgy.
 
Technically, the Pope is the one person who is omni-ritual, meaning that he may celebrate in any Rite he so chooses. It is, however, rare that any Pope celebrates in other than the Roman Rite.

I believe PP Pius XI offered the Byzantine DL (Italo-Greek usage in Greek IIRC) publicly in Rome at least once. I’m not familiar with Bl PP John XXIII having done it, but the late Pontiff did so on at least 2 occasions that I’m aware of. At least once in Rome and again during his visit to Ukraine.
 
I’m sure ciero is already well-aware that the Holy Father can celebrate whatever Rite he wants. I think the point was just that it mixes the Roman with the Ukrainian and it looks weird and ciero thinks it’s more appropriate to stick to a purer form, understandable especially since Easterners aren’t very happy when their culture is Latinised.

I might disagree with ciero (I for one like it when Eastern things are given attention like this so us Romans can see it) but ciero surely already knows the Pope can very well do that but he/she just doesn’t like the implications.
 
malphono said:
I’m not familiar with Bl PP John XXIII having done it, but the late Pontiff did so on at least 2 occasions that I’m aware of. At least once in Rome and again during his visit to Ukraine.
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Here’s a vid with pics of John XXIII celebrating one
youtube.com/watch?v=sQny8sVjzug

I’m curious, do you happen to know what the occassions were for when John Paul II and Pius XI did it? With John Paul II, it was done in the Basilica, so presumably it was for a special event (I’m under the impression the Pope only does Mass at Saint Peter’s on certain occassions).
 
PazzoGrande said:
I’m sure ciero is already well-aware that the Holy Father can celebrate whatever Rite he wants. I think the point was just that it mixes the Roman with the Ukrainian and it looks weird and ciero thinks it’s more appropriate to stick to a purer form, understandable especially since Easterners aren’t very happy when their culture is Latinised.

I might disagree with ciero (I for one like it when Eastern things are given attention like this so us Romans can see it) but ciero surely already knows the Pope can very well do that but he/she just doesn’t like the implications.
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The way I see it is it would be akin to the Patriarch of Moscow celebrating the EF form of the Mass, just because he could because he has Western Rite churches under his jurisdiction. The Pope may have the right to serve the Divine Liturgy but that does not make it proper.
 
PazzoGrande said:
Here’s a vid with pics of John XXIII celebrating one
youtube.com/watch?v=sQny8sVjzug
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Interesting. Thanks for posting that link. 🙂
PazzoGrande said:
I’m curious, do you happen to know what the occassions were for when John Paul II and Pius XI did it? With John Paul II, it was done in the Basilica, so presumably it was for a special event (I’m under the impression the Pope only does Mass at Saint Peter’s on certain occassions).
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I seem to think that when PP Pius XI did it, it had something to do with the Italo-Greeks, perhaps the Abbey at Grottaferrata, but I’m not sure. It was, however, done in S Peter’s. I once saw some old photos of it, and I distinctly recall the High Altar. From those photos, it was all quite impressive.

The only thing I know about John-Paul II was that it was according to the Ukrainian recension. Perhaps one of our Byzantine members knows more detail.
 
ciero said:
The way I see it is it would be akin to the Patriarch of Moscow celebrating the EF form of the Mass, just because he could because he has Western Rite churches under his jurisdiction. The Pope may have the right to serve the Divine Liturgy but that does not make it proper.
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Well Blessed Pope John Paul II is slavic and I believe his mother is UGCC, so he definitely has a right to the Divine Liturgy. I believe he celebrated with the Ukrainians.
 
malphono said:
Interesting. Thanks for posting that link. 🙂

I seem to think that when PP Pius XI did it, it had something to do with the Italo-Greeks, perhaps the Abbey at Grottaferrata, but I’m not sure. It was, however, done in S Peter’s. I once saw some old photos of it, and I distinctly recall the High Altar. From those photos, it was all quite impressive.

The only thing I know about John-Paul II was that it was according to the Ukrainian recension. Perhaps one of our Byzantine members knows more detail.
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Is an Iconostasis a requirement for the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy? Or is this something that they can dispense of? I’m wondering why they didn’t set up a portable one around the High Altar (or if they did, I don’t see it). I also wonder if in cases like that they bother with having a Antimension since there are already relics in Latin altars.

Fascinating stuff.
 
PazzoGrande said:
Is an Iconostasis a requirement for the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy? Or is this something that they can dispense of? I’m wondering why they didn’t set up a portable one around the High Altar (or if they did, I don’t see it). I also wonder if in cases like that they bother with having a Antimension since there are already relics in Latin altars.

Fascinating stuff.
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Under normal circumstances it would be there. There are parishes though with no iconostasis. Liturgies celebrated in special locations should have the icons of Christ Pantokrator and the Theotokos. But again sometimes circumstances prevent that.
 
(In 1963) Pope John the XXIII was also changing the image of the church. “For the first time in history, the Bishop of Rome celebrated a mass using the Melkite Rite.” –http://www.melkite.org/Milwauk9.htm

WE know it was not a “Melkite Rite” - but that is how several American newspapers reported it. The quote above was from the Milwaukee Journal. The service was done in regards to a Melkite consecration - so perhaps that is why the media used “Melkite service” rathr than saying a DL.

consecrated Father Gabriel Acacio Coussa as Melkite Archbishop of Hierapolis. Within a year Coussa was elevated to Secretary of the Congregation for the Eastern Churches and appointed Cardinal-Priest of Saint Atanasio. He was the first Eastern Catholic to lead the Congregation for the Eastern Churches.
 
PazzoGrande said:
Is an Iconostasis a requirement for the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy? Or is this something that they can dispense of? I’m wondering why they didn’t set up a portable one around the High Altar (or if they did, I don’t see it). I also wonder if in cases like that they bother with having a Antimension since there are already relics in Latin altars.

Fascinating stuff.
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I just realized I have been to about 10 DL (Ruthenian) yet an Iconostasis has never been used. I always go to the pilgrimage site and the celebration is outside the Church (which has an Iconostasis) at the shrine of our Lady of Perpetual Help. olphshrine.com/about.shtml

Every time the Deacon, the Pastor, an Archpriest, and the Eparch along with some eastern nuns. Yet I’ve never heard mention that this may be inappropriate.

Is there a big difference between the DL with and w/o the Iconostatis?
 
Evan said:
I just realized I have been to about 10 DL (Ruthenian) yet an Iconostasis has never been used. I always go to the pilgrimage site and the celebration is outside the Church (which has an Iconostasis) at the shrine of our Lady of Perpetual Help. olphshrine.com/about.shtml

Every time the Deacon, the Pastor, an Archpriest, and the Eparch along with some eastern nuns. Yet I’ve never heard mention that this may be inappropriate.

Is there a big difference between the DL with and w/o the Iconostatis?
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If I’m not mistaken both shrines at the OLPH pilgrimage have Icons mounted on the front for when the Divine Liturgy is served. Not quite a full Iconostasis but pretty good for a temporary chapel.
 
UncleBill said:
If I’m not mistaken both shrines at the OLPH pilgrimage have Icons mounted on the front for when the Divine Liturgy is served. Not quite a full Iconostasis but pretty good for a temporary chapel.
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The Icon is mounted behind the Altar.

In this picture is altar olphshrine.com/image.cfm?idx=2
with an icon of Our Lady to the left and Our Lord to the right.

Behind the altar is the icon of OLPH ( olphshrine.com/image.cfm?idx=1 )

Here is a picture taken during the DL. olphshrine.com/image.cfm?idx=30
 
In the early church there was an Italo Greek Pope. I doubt that Pope gave up his own liturgy.
 
rdorseyhsd said:
In the early church there was an Italo Greek Pope. I doubt that Pope gave up his own liturgy.
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Perhaps it’s more a matter of the Pope, as Pontiff of the Universal Church, embracing the entirety of Catholic tradition, including the Liturgies of the various ritual Churches in the Communion.
 
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