When does veneration become worship?

[porthos11]

I do not believe that Catholics give Mary a “Godess” status or sacrifice anything to her…but isn’t the Bible clear that we are not supposed to address any dead person in prayer even if it’s just to honor him/her? This is the crux of the problem that Protestants have with those Christians who are so openly Marian.

No, the Bible does not say that. It prohibits necromancy, the consulting of the dead to obtain “signs” or some other “knowledge.” This covers seances. Catholics do not do that, even with the saints. There is absolutely no prohibition on invoking the saints for intercession (“pray for us”). And it’s just as well because we do not believe they are in some netherworld. We believe they are enjoying union with God. We believe in the sharing of spiritual goods, which is why we have no problem asking them to pray for us because they are alive in heaven, the Church triumphant.

We Catholics are Marian because we have a full sense of the Biblical concepts of family and covenant. Mary is our Mother only because she is the Mother of our Lord, in whom we have adoption as sons of God.

 

[ccmcmg]

For me, personally, it’s in my heart. It’s not a word, it’s not an action. It’s a choice made in my heart, to honor properly the mother of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Even though I didn’t have much catechesis growing up as a Catholic, I never once even considered that we were worshipping Mary. Instead, we’re honoring her, respecting her. Jesus Christ is God, and He walked on Earth as Mary’s son and our Savior at the same time, our God. As I respect and honor the mothers of my best friends, even differently than I honor or respect other mothers with no relationship to me, I honor and respect Mary, the mother of my very best Friend, the one and only who can save me, a lowly sinner. I want to be more like her. I would love to decrease myself so fully that I can only be filled with the Goodness afforded Mary, short only of becoming completely and utterly consumed by God.

Mary carried Jesus in her womb! In her body! Who else on earth was closer to Him than her? No one. She was chosen by God, to carry God, to be the mother of our Savior. She can’t be our Savior, but her Son is.

I pray to Mary (because I can’t call her on the phone) to help me, to give me strength, to honor her and thank her. I pray to God, to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, to help me, to give me strength, to honor Him and thank Him, to bless Him, to praise Him. The difference may not be visible outwardly, but it is inwardly, in my heart and soul.

I truly hope that people can tell the difference between Hail Holy Queen and the Lord’s Prayer. One was instituted by Christ Himself; the other was written in this world. There is nothing wrong with scripted prayers, whether to God, to Mary, or to a saint. If I send a form letter or the same words in a phone call to all my friends asking for their prayers and help, that’s fine. If I use different emails to each of them, that’s fine, too. The Hail Holy Queen, to me, is asking the Blessed Mother to pray for me and us.

Sure, Hail Holy Queen is full of flowery and beautiful language. The Pope, the Dalai Lama, and Gandhi will likely have different titles or eulogies than I do/will, too. We’re all God’s children, and loved by Him. But their accomplishments are a bit different than mine, and inspire different words.

 

[ericc]

I do not believe that Catholics give Mary a “Godess” status or sacrifice anything to her…but isn’t the Bible clear that we are not supposed to address any dead person in prayer even if it’s just to honor him/her? This is the crux of the problem that Protestants have with those Christians who are so openly Marian.

Where is it in the Bible “that we are not supposed to address any dead person in prayer even if it’s just to honor him/her”?. So one can not address our dead parents in prayer too? Or is it a recent man-made invention?

 

[johnmann]

As a cradle Catholic, any veneration of the saints seemed completely normal to me. Only recently have I begun to realize that some Catholics really do over do it.

The way I like to think about it is a deceased relative. You might go to their grave, especially on their birthday or other important milestone, and place flowers and candles there. In some customs you might burn incense or even “offer” them food or drink. Obviously, they can’t eat or drink. The idea is that of honor. You might even talk to your deceased relative. Possibly even implore your relative to put in a word to God for you. We popularly say that they’re watching over us from heaven. But we don’t believe your dead relative has the power to say, cure the infirm. Nor do we incorporate him/her into the liturgy except possibly a simple mention. Nor do we spent an inordinate amount of time on them.

There’s been some push back from some Catholics on the number of days we devote to Mary. Again, as a cradle Catholic, I’m unbothered by it but they have a point.

 

[ccmcmg]

As a cradle Catholic, any veneration of the saints seemed completely normal to me. Only recently have I begun to realize that some Catholics really do over do it.
…

There’s been some push back from some Catholics on the number of days we devote to Mary. Again, as a cradle Catholic, I’m unbothered by it but they have a point.

There is pushback from Catholics and non-Catholics alike, about every aspect of the Catholic Faith. Every. Aspect. But the Catholic Church: Is. Most, if not a super large majority, do not have a problem with the devotion of days or prayers to Mary, or to the Saints.

I’m not saying it can’t be overdone. But trust me when I say, it’s more often ‘under-done’, probably at 20 or 25-1 odds underdoing to overdoing. For every 1 person who gives too great of honor or devotion to the Mary and Saints (that would only be, worshipping them at a level equal or higher than God) there are probably 20 to 25 who underdo it, not counting those with an ‘appropriate’ level. I need to give greater honor and devotion to Mary and the Saints. It could never surpass the level of what I worship God, my Lord and Savior, my Comforter, my Father. For whatever I’m giving to them, it’s to give to Him.

 

[HelenRose]

I’m not a true protestant, by the way. I actually accept a few Catholic teachings; I just associate more with the protestants than with the Catholics. I have no anecdotes I want to share to criticize your faith, and the reason I’m participating on Catholic Answers is so I can gain some deeper insights into the Bible.

Sure, I respect my parents, but I don’t talk to them as though they were king and queen. I don’t worship them as my Lord and Creator, but I also don’t talk to them the same way I would talk to my Lord.

Mary is not addressed as our savior, in this prayer or in any other prayer. Instead, she is supposed to be the model for which we should live our lives: the humble, obedient handmaiden. My main confusion is why we make ourselves so low, so pitiful before her feet when we pray. If she doesn’t save, why can’t we talk to her like we would talk to, say, a boss who is also a close friend? Why do we need to call her the “Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope”? Christ is hope. Christ, literally, is life. So why do we talk to Mary and other saints like we would talk to God?

Christ gave us Mary, His Mother, to love us. Am I to reject the beauty of His gift to us? Am I to see it as “oh hum so she is His mother. so what”?

She is my dearest friend. I long to love Christ as she loved Christ. Since she is human as we are, we are able to see Christ through her eyes and strive to love Him as she loved Him.

But love is personal. I love Mary. I can’t explain that love any more than I can explain the love I have for Jesus. How can one person explain to another why they love. She is a part of my life. I don’t worship her. I love her. I love Jesus and I also worship Him.

Maybe because I am an old woman and have lost many of those whom I have loved here on Earth (the saddest being my precious 7 year old granddaughter). Maybe I need Mary to hold on to. Maybe Christ only gives his Mother to those who need her. Maybe you don’t need her yet.

 

[SanctusMarcus]

I’m not here to accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary or the saints or anything. But since the Catholics don’t consider veneration to be worship, I was wondering where that ‘red line’ is. For example, if we were to put the Hail Holy Queen prayer side-by-side with the Lord’s Prayer, I don’t think the average Protestant would be able to tell the difference. So what kind of veneration does one need to show before veneration becomes worship?

If you have a picture of your mother, you would put in a frame, hang it on the wall and clean it every couple of days. This is veneration.
If you have a picture of your father, and you claim it to be divine and adore it, then that would be idolatry.
It is the same with the Saints. We venerate their images, and yes, we bow to them and kiss them, but we do it out of love and respect. We don’t say “O Mary, Goddess and Co-Creator of the Universe”. No! We say “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee.”
Unfortunately, Protestants have a twisted and narrow view of adoration and veneration. It all ties down to their great misunderstanding of the Bible! Until they correct this, they will never understand!