When God prevents exercise of free will

[KarenNC]

In another thread we were discussing the plagues in Eqypt (Exodus 4-11) and, in light of other discussions regarding the importance of free will in humans in determining culpability, what does the Church teach in reference to situations when God Himself prevents a person from exercising free will? Are that person’s actions then still considered to be sinful or are they actually now actively good, whatever they are, because God caused them?

The specific points that brought this to fore are the ones about God hardening Pharoah’s heart deliberately and specifically so that he would not let the Israelites leave the country until God was through showing His power to His satisfaction. To me, this means that God prevented Pharoah from the possibility of exercising free will and making a choice as to whether to let them go or not. The plagues were not in reaction to a choice made by Pharoah, God says before Moses even goes back to Egypt that He will visit all sorts of things on them and keep Pharoah from letting them go.

 

[FightingFat]

There’s a human author as well as a divine one to Scripture in kind of a Nestorian union. While nothing is written that God does not want written, you have to accept a literary license in Scripture and not take it too literally; there is a human element! I would also be interested in how this translates from the original text…

Another issue is that God let’s some stuff happen to make us stronger, like demonic possession- it cannot happen without God’s assent, but he doesn’t “do it” if you see what I mean.

Also see Rom 9:14-24

 

[KarenNC]

There’s a human author as well as a divine one to Scripture in kind of a Nestorian union. While nothing is written that God does not want written, you have to accept a literary license in Scripture and not take it too literally; there is a human element! I would also be interested in how this translates from the original text…

Another issue is that God let’s some stuff happen to make us stronger, like demonic possession- it cannot happen without God’s assent, but he doesn’t “do it” if you see what I mean.

Also see Rom 9:14-24

Verses 17-18 seem very apropos
"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

In both Exodus and Romans it plainly states that God Himself hardens the hearts, a volitional act, not that He allows it to happen like He allowed things to happen to Job.

It would seem to me that such an act removes the possibility of free will on the part of the person whose heart has been hardened. Job still had free will in choosing how to respond to his circumstances, Pharoah did not.

As to the literary license, is the one part of the sentence in Romans to be taken as literary license and one half as true? God’s mercy is not actual?

 

[Ahimsa]

God’s hardening of pharaoh’s heart, I don’t have a problem with – if that means that pharaoh’s actions aren’t held against him. Perhaps pharaoh is a saint in heaven, because of God’s use of him.

In fact, perhaps pharaoh had a choice to either (1) be used by God (and, thus, let his heart be hardened), or (2) to resist God (and, thus, keep his heart soft and willing to release the Hebrews). In such a scenario, pharaoh’s devotion to God (or, at least, to God as he understood Him) would have meant that he would have been, on the surface, an agent of ungodliness, whereas, actually, he was on God’s side. In which case, pharaoh sacrifices his own reputation for good, in order that God’s power might be made manifest, for the greater good of the world.

 

[Conciliar]

God hardening Pharoah’s heart deliberately and specifically so that he would not let the Israelites leave the country until God was through showing His power to His satisfaction.

That is a misreading of the passage. It is most definitely peculiar wording when read in our language, but God did not suspend free-will just to make a point.

The correct way to understand “God hardened Pharoah’s heart” is that the very presence of God; One who was more powerful than Pharoah and was challenging his authority in the words delivered to him through Moses, hardened Pharoah’s heart. This is the way arrogance, and pride reacts to Truth; to God… It is an act of the will.

Do you have a friend or relative who every time you mention a Catholic teaching literally bristles? Can you look back at a time in your own life when you were in the habit of sin, and the still quiet voice of God would gently reprimand you from within, and yet for a time, you refused to let Him penetrate your heart? It is similar. The very presence of that truth “hardens” prideful men’s hearts… they refuse to let God in.

When we encounter a passage that read on the surface asks us to suspend what we know about God, e.g. HE is just, He is kind, HE honors free-will, etc… that is a sure clue that we are missing something and have to dig deeper.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Conciliar:

the very presence of God; One who was more powerful than Pharoah and was challenging his authority in the words delivered to him through Moses, hardened Pharoah’s heart. This is the way arrogance, and pride reacts to Truth; to God… It is an act of the will.

Major memorable insight. Yes Pharoah had free will. He chose against God. God used that choice to harden his heart.

Conciliar:

Do you have a friend or relative who every time you mention a Catholic teaching literally bristles?

I know people who flinch and even run away. It is a great comfort to remember that God will use that hardenness of heart to achieve something good for the Kingdom.

 

[Conciliar]

I wonder if Karen is still stopping by this thread. Hope so! I thought of this thread at Mass today.

Today’s Responsorial Psalm:

If today you hear HIs voice, harden not your heart

This sheds some light on the subject very well, I think. Pharoah heard God’s voice through Moses, and it was he, Pharoah, who hardened his own heart against it.

 

[KarenNC]

I wonder if Karen is still stopping by this thread. Hope so! I thought of this thread at Mass today.
Today’s Responsorial Psalm:
If today you hear HIs voice, harden not your heart
This sheds some light on the subject very well, I think. Pharoah heard God’s voice through Moses, and it was he, Pharoah, who hardened his own heart against it.

I’m still here. Basically many of the answers boil down to “the Scripture verses don’t mean what they say, they actually mean the opposite” and that when the Bible says “God says” it doesn’t really mean that God actually meant what is written that He said. It doesn’t surprise me, but does seem to directly contradict the following verses:

Romans 9:18
“Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.”

Exodus 4: 21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:1-5
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”

Exodus 9:12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

Exodus 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

Exodus 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

Exodus 11:9-10
9 The LORD had said to Moses, “Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt.” 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

Exodus 12:36
36 The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.

Exodus 14:1-4
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 “Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea. They are to encamp by the sea, directly opposite Baal Zephon. 3 Pharaoh will think, ‘The Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert.’ 4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” So the Israelites did this.

 

[Conciliar]

Hi Karen!

Glad you’re still here. The unfortunate truth is (or maybe fortunate since it makes us work) the constructs of language don’t always make it easy for us to see what is being said.

Yet in this case, the answer is here for us. Remember - Scripture must be read as a whole, not just verse for verse. The following verses about Pharaoh make it clear who is actually doing the hardening; it is Pharaoh himself.

EX 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart, and would not listen to them; as the LORD had said.

EX 8: 32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.

Emphasis Added. Pharaoh hardened his heart, as the Lord said. How did the Lord say so? He said, “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart.” Yes, it is peculiar phraseology for 21st century english speakers like us but Scripture tells us pretty plainly what is meant.

That said, I go back to my first point; when it appears that the text tells us that God flip flopped in some way, or acted in a manner that is totally out of keeping with God as we know Him from the totality of revelation, it’s a red flag. It should tell us that we need to dig deeper.

Not to get too far off topic, but this touches on a theme found in a similar question, “Can God, who can do all things, sin?” This has been debated at length. The answer is no, not because there is a limit of what God can do, but because He is not the absence of that which He is. Sin is the absence of love. God is love. Therefore God cannot have or be the absence of love.

In this case, we know that God is faithful. The gift of free will He gave to man is in a sense a covenant, and God can not break it, or momentarily suspend it or take it away, because doing so would be the absence of faithfulness.

So… when a text seems to imply a momentary radical shift in who God is, we need to scratch deeper. The contradiction is always in our understanding, not in God’s behavior or being. In this case, the answer to what really took place - one that does not ask us to assign “absence” to the God who is - can be found in the verses I quoted.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[KarenNC]

Hi Karen!

Glad you’re still here. The unfortunate truth is (or maybe fortunate since it makes us work) the constructs of language don’t always make it easy for us to see what is being said.

Thanks, all of the responses have indeed given me greater insight into the Catholic teaching on the subject. I have heard it discussed from a Jewish and a Protestant perspective and was curious to see how it compared. Have to admit that I do not know enough Hebrew or Greek to see how the phraseology compares there.

 

[joe100]

The best explanation I came across was that if you look at the original writings God hardening Pharoh’s heart was actually, the same sun that bakes the clay melts the wax. This is similar to a prior posting offering that God did not violate Pharoh’s free will, but instead when faced with choosing between following God’s will or turning from it, Pharoh choose to fight God’s will.

How many times have we let our pride get in the way of doing what we should?

 

[Conciliar]

Thanks, all of the responses have indeed given me greater insight into the Catholic teaching on the subject. I have heard it discussed from a Jewish and a Protestant perspective and was curious to see how it compared. Have to admit that I do not know enough Hebrew or Greek to see how the phraseology compares there.

Hi Karen!

I am not sure what you read about this from a Jewish perspective. Now days, especially here in the U.S., one is more likely to encounter a Reform Jewish idea than one in keeping with the Judaism from which we came.

Here is a Midrash from roughly the 11th century on this very topic:

Rabbi Yochanan said: "Does this not provide heretics with ground for arguing that he had no means of repenting, since it says: ‘for I have hardened his heart’? (Midrash Rabbah, Shmot 13:3)

The Midrash provides an answer:

To which Rabbi Shimon b. Lakish replied: “Let the mouths of the heretics be stopped up … when God warns a man once, twice, and even a third time, and he still does not repent, then does God close his heart against repentance so that He should exact vengeance from him for his sins. Thus it was with the wicked Pharaoh. Since God sent five times to him and he took no notice, God then said: ‘You have stiffened your neck and hardened your heart; well, I will add to your uncleanness.’” (Midrash Rabbah, Exodus 13:3)

While a somewhat different presentation, the key is that Pharaoh did not have his free will taken away in order to suit God’s purpose; it was Pharaoh himself who hardened his own heart. This would be an authentic Jewish understanding. I wonder how this compares with what you found…

 

[Nicolaus]

Conciliar,
Let me thank You for Your reply, because I wanted to answer in similar way, but You did it better.
God never violates our free will.It is our predisposition to sin, what
hardens our harts.How God could wanted us to sin if His only will is,
to get us all in Heaven.Only we can stop Him to do so.
But we maybe shouldn’t concentrate so much on Old Testament, because it was “old testament”, we have New Testament now!
And we have Judas Iscariot now.And yet, the same thing apply to him as to Pharaoh.
I heard in sermon once, that st.Paul’s free will was violated even God only demonstrated His Glory to him and st.Paul submitted to it.
God Bless You.

 

[Mordocai]

God can enact His own free will however He chooses.

Just as a good father can freely stop his own child’s free will ranting and raving by placing them in time out.

 

[Conciliar]

Conciliar,
Let me thank You for Your reply, because I wanted to answer in similar way, but You did it better.
God never violates our free will.It is our predisposition to sin, what
hardens our harts.How God could wanted us to sin if His only will is,
to get us all in Heaven.Only we can stop Him to do so.
But we maybe shouldn’t concentrate so much on Old Testament, because it was “old testament”, we have New Testament now!
And we have Judas Iscariot now.And yet, the same thing apply to him as to Pharaoh.
I heard in sermon once, that st.Paul’s free will was violated even God only demonstrated His Glory to him and st.Paul submitted to it.
God Bless You.

Thanks Nicolaus, and welcome. You siad it well. God cannot will for us both eternal life and the disobedience that will cause us death. Good point.

 

[KarenNC]

I wonder how this compares with what you found…

Consistent.

 

[Conciliar]

God can enact His own free will however He chooses.

Just as a good father can freely stop his own child’s free will ranting and raving by placing them in time out.

God has absolute freedom of will. True. He does not, however, exercise that freedom in a way that violates His nature. Stripping Pharoah, or anyone else for that matter, of his free will even temporarily would be just such a violation of God’s nature. It does not happen.

Your example is not a case of taking away a child’s free will really. Likewise, when God intervenes directly into the physical world, let’s use the example of the flood, still He is not properly speaking limiting man’s free will. Man still has the freedom to react to his surroundings. Your child in timeout still has free will - he can scream, he can cry, he can even continue to rant and rave but if he gets quiet and behaves, even though you have helped him, it is because he freely chose to do so.

 

[Strevel]

IMHO, God always gives us free will. We should never be little tin soldiers, atomitons never thinking.

We do right because we choose to and we recieve the blessings of doing so. When we do wrong we do not recieve good blessings, we recieve the negative returns.

We do right we get right, we do wrong we get wrong.

In another thread we were discussing the plagues in Eqypt (Exodus 4-11) and, in light of other discussions regarding the importance of free will in humans in determining culpability, what does the Church teach in reference to situations when God Himself prevents a person from exercising free will? Are that person’s actions then still considered to be sinful or are they actually now actively good, whatever they are, because God caused them?

The specific points that brought this to fore are the ones about God hardening Pharoah’s heart deliberately and specifically so that he would not let the Israelites leave the country until God was through showing His power to His satisfaction. To me, this means that God prevented Pharoah from the possibility of exercising free will and making a choice as to whether to let them go or not. The plagues were not in reaction to a choice made by Pharoah, God says before Moses even goes back to Egypt that He will visit all sorts of things on them and keep Pharoah from letting them go.

 

[FightingFat]

I’m still here. Basically many of the answers boil down to “the Scripture verses don’t mean what they say, they actually mean the opposite” and that when the Bible says “God says” it doesn’t really mean that God actually meant what is written that He said. It doesn’t surprise me, but does seem to directly contradict the following verses:

Romans 9:18
“Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.”

The basic biblical principle is: those who will not see or hear shall not see or hear. On the other hand, the same God who thus makes stubborn or hardens the heart can reconstruct it through the work of the holy Spirit.

The apostle responds to the objection that if God rules over faith through the principle of divine election, God cannot then accuse unbelievers of sin (Romans 9:19). For Paul, this objection is in the last analysis a manifestation of human insolence, and his “answer” is less an explanation of God’s ways than the rejection of an argument that places humanity on a level with God. At the same time, Paul shows that God is far less arbitrary than appearances suggest, for God endures with much patience (Romans 9:22) a person like the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans9.htm

Exodus 4: 21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Make him obstinate: literally, “harden his heart.” God permitted Pharaoh to be stubborn in his opposition to the departure of the Israelites
usccb.org/nab/bible/exodus/exodus4.htm

Exodus 7:1-5
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”

I haven’t got my study bible with me and there’s no footnotes for this one on the USCCB site!

I think the thing with the Old testament especially is that it is a story of man coming to know God and we get into trouble when we start to be fundamnetalist in our approach to the words of scripture.

Pope Pius XII put it this way:

What is the literal sense of a passage is not always as obvious in the speeches and writings of the ancient authors of the East, as it is in the works of our own time. For what they wished to express is not to be determined by the rules of grammar and philology alone, nor solely by the context; the interpreter must, as it were, go back wholly in spirit to those remote centuries of the East and with the aid of history, archaeology, ethnology, and other sciences, accurately determine what modes of writing, so to speak, the authors of that ancient period would be likely to use, and in fact did use.

 

[Pophead]

The basic biblical principle is: those who will not see or hear shall not see or hear. On the other hand, the same God who thus makes stubborn or hardens the heart can reconstruct it through the work of the holy Spirit.

Yes, I certainly got this impression too. It seems that the softening and hardening process is repeated over the duration of one’s life; to disrupt the rocking effect that is caused by knowledge of good and evil.

God is a very persuasive Potter. It is not always the wilful soul in us that is a problem, it is sometimes the over eager co-operator in us who causes things to lean too hard to one side.

whoops, time to run.