When good protestants die and are in purgatory, will they understand where they are?

[surfinpure]

Kristopher,

I wish I knew of some direct links to the answer to your question. The best I have to offer is a synopsis of the Catholic apologists I’ve read, and that is that God can save whomever He decides to save. We cannot understand His grace or favor.

Ignorance is a blessing to some Protestants, in that they are only trying to follow Christ to the best of their knowledge. The same goes for those completely outside of Christianity. I believe the danger lies in placing oneself in direct opposition to Rome. I fear for the souls of the “Christian” believers who blanketly reject Christ’s true Church.

From what I understand, the younger a person is in his faith, or the more simple minded, or the more earnest in his search for Truth, the greater his chances of finding God’s mercy at the time of death. I believe this is what is meant by “invincible ignorance.”

No doubt there are volumes of great Catholic apologetic thought on the subject. I would encourage you, rather than probing the minds of the laity any further (though many are keener and better equipped than my own), to seek out the answer from those who know the topic best.

In Christ,

sur

 

[Shlemele]

How will Protestants get into Purgatory? Purgatory is part of Heaven. Heaven is for those who are saved. What makes Protestants saved?

My churches Confession of Faith

Article 1: God

We believe in the one, true, living God, Creator of heaven and earth. God is almighty in power, perfect in wisdom, righteous in judgment, overflowing in steadfast love. God is the Sovereign who rules over all things visible and invisible, the Shepherd who rescues the lost and helpless. God is a refuge and fortress for those in need. God is a consuming fire, perfect in holiness, yet slow to anger and abounding in tender mercy. God comforts like a loving mother, trains and disciplines like a caring father, and persists in covenant love like a faithful husband. We confess God as eternal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

God the Father
God the Father is the source of all life. In Him we live and move and have our being. The Father seeks those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth, and hears the prayers of all who call on Him. In the fullness of time, the Father sent the Son for the salvation of the world. Through Jesus Christ the Father adopts all who respond in faith to the gospel, forgiving those who repent of their sin and entering into a new covenant with them. God gives the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, to all His children. God’s creative and redemptive love sustains this world until the end of the age.

God the Son
The Son, through whom all things were created and who holds all things together, is the image of the invisible God. Conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, Jesus took on human nature to redeem this fallen world. He revealed the fullness of God through his obedient and sinless life. Through word and deed Jesus proclaimed the reign of God, bringing good news to the poor, release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind. Christ triumphed over sin through His death and resurrection, and was exalted as Lord of creation and the church. The Savior of the world invites all to be reconciled to God, offering peace to those far and near, and calling them to follow Him in the way of the cross. Until the Lord Jesus returns in glory, He intercedes for believers, acts as their advocate, and calls them to be His witnesses.

God the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit, the Counselor, is the creative power, presence and wisdom of God. The Spirit convicts people of sin, gives them new life, and guides them into all truth. By the Spirit believers are baptized into one body. The indwelling Spirit testifies that they are God’s children, distributes gifts for ministry, empowers for witness, and produces the fruit of righteousness. As Comforter, the Holy Spirit helps God’s children in their weakness, intercedes for them according to God’s will and assures them of eternal life.

God’s Plan
Throughout history, God has acted mightily to deliver people from bondage and draw them into a covenant relationship. Through the prophets God prepared the way of salvation until finally God reconciled the world to Himself by the atoning blood of Jesus. As people place their trust in Christ, they are saved by grace through faith, not of their own doing, but as a gift of God. God forgives them, delivers them from sin’s bondage, makes them new creatures in Christ, empowers them by the Holy Spirit and seals them for eternal life. When sin and death are finally abolished and the redeemed are gathered in the new heaven and the new earth, God will have completed the plan of salvation.

Humanity’s Response
Though Jesus entered a world ruled by sin, He chose not to submit to its allure and broke its domination. Through His obedient life, His death on the cross and His glorious resurrection, Christ triumphed over Satan and the powers of sin and death, opening the way for all people to follow. Convicted by the Holy Spirit, people turn from sin, entrust their lives to God, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and join the family of God. All who receive Christ are born again, and have peace with God, and are called to love one another and live at peace with their neighbor. Those whom God is saving no longer live for themselves for they have been set free from sin and called to newness of life.

The Sanctity of Human Life
We believe that all human life belongs to God. Each person is created in the image of God and ought to be celebrated and nurtured. Because God is creator, the author and giver of life, we oppose all actions and attitudes which devalue human life. The unborn, disabled, poor, aging and dying are particularly vulnerable to such injustices. Christ calls the people of all nations to care for the defenseless.

God values human life highly. Ultimate decisions regarding life and death belong to God. Therefore, we hold that procedures designed to take life, including abortion, euthanasia, and assisted suicide, are an affront to God’s sovereignty. We esteem the life-sustaining findings of medical science, but recognize that there are limits to the value of seeking to sustain life indefinitely. In all complex ethical decisions regarding life and death, we seek to offer hope and healing, support and counsel in the context of the Christian community

What here is anti-Christian?

 

[DavidFilmer]

Shlemele:

My churches Confession of Faith…

Your profile identifies your church as Mennonite Brethren. I’m pretty sure the Mennonite Brethren don’t usually profess a belief in the state known to Catholics as “Purgatory.”

Do you?

 

[BibleReader]

Kristopher:

Dear Bible Reader:

How will Protestants get into Purgatory? Purgatory is part of Heaven. Heaven is for those who are saved. What makes Protestants saved?

Most sincerely,

Kristopher

Invincible ignorance.

In the story of the Good Samaritan, Christ picked a priest and a Levite and a Samaritan as the objects of His analysis. The priest was a believer. The Levite was a believer. The Samaritan was a non-believer. Who would be saved? The priest who declined to be charitable? The Levite who declined to be charitable? Or the Samaritan who was very charitable?

 

[Gratias_Grace]

I voted “The nature of their situation will be made known to them”.

I voted so because God is good and mercyfull. The function of the prosess of Purgatory is to to be purified. God knows that the protestants were not trained to believe in that prosess. God who is good and mercyfull will not fool them to believe that they are in Hell.

How this prosess is going to be, we really don’t know much about. It make sence to me that we will see the consequences of our sins already forgiven. Then we will understand how much our sins harmed others (When we laughed and made fools of others, cheated, stopped to love somebody, hurt others in many ways etc).

When we know, really know, the pain we have caused, then we will be very very sorry. In that condition we are ready to open up and let God clean us. To be cleansed hurts, but doesen’t happen outside of Gods love. (Remember stumbling when we were children? To get our wounds cleansed and bandaged did hurt, but it felt safe to be surrounded by mama’s or papa’s arms).

After death we are outside of time. It make no sence to speak of amount of time. I think “amount” of intensity are more appropriate. It make sence to me that that intencity will vary from person to person. We have not done the same sins.

Catholics are blessed with the oportunity to do penance etc. Our puryfying prosess have already started. The protestants may also “have started” in some degree, but they do not know how to make full benefit of it. They are not trained to think about such things.

The best we can do for our non-catholic brothers and sisters that have passed away are to pray and pray and pray for them. Their familymembers living on earth will not do it!

May the Lord have mercy on all souls that died in His friendship and especially those souls that have nobody on earth who prays for them

 

[Shlemele]

DavidFilmer:

Your profile identifies your church as Mennonite Brethren. I’m pretty sure the Mennonite Brethren don’t usually profess a belief in the state known to Catholics as “Purgatory.”

Do you?

No but last I checked that wasn’t required to get to heaven. If you are saying that one must believe EVERYTHING that the Catholic church teaches to go to heaven then I know a lot of Catholics who are in trouble too. We believe in Christ Chrucified and raised from the dead, The Holy Spirit, and that the only way to heaven is through Christ. If that isn’t good enough than nothing else is.

 

[deb1]

Shlemele:

No but last I checked that wasn’t required to get to heaven. If you are saying that one must believe EVERYTHING that the Catholic church teaches to go to heaven then I know a lot of Catholics who are in trouble too. We believe in Christ Chrucified and raised from the dead, The Holy Spirit, and that the only way to heaven is through Christ. If that isn’t good enough than nothing else is.

Hello,

I am glad that you are still on these forums. Its nice to debate a Protestant for a change who isn’t rabidly antiCatholic. I don’t think that David is saying that Protestants will go to hell or won’t get into heaven. Pope John Paul 2 called Protestants our seperated brethen and I, myself, have known some very Godly Protestant-my deceased Grandma being one. Purgatory is different then hell and it is a place that I will probably have to spend a few years in. Everyone who is in Purgatory will eventually get into heaven.

 

[Kristopher]

deb1:

Hello,

I am glad that you are still on these forums. Its nice to debate a Protestant for a change who isn’t rabidly antiCatholic. I don’t think that David is saying that Protestants will go to hell or won’t get into heaven. Pope John Paul 2 called Protestants our seperated brethen and I, myself, have known some very Godly Protestant-my deceased Grandma being one. Purgatory is different then hell and it is a place that I will probably have to spend a few years in. Everyone who is in Purgatory will eventually get into heaven.

Dear deb1:

I noticed what you wrote: “…Everyone who is in Purgatory will eventually get into heaven.”

Fr. Carapi said, there is no difference between Heaven and Purgatory. For all intents and purposes, Heaven and Purgatory are the same, except the pain felt in Purgatory is excruciating, because the soul is extremely sensitive. It hurts quite a bit.

Most sincerely,

Kristopher

 

[MeusVita]

Kristopher:

Fr. Carapi said, there is no difference between Heaven and Purgatory.

Wrong. If Purgatory were the same as Heaven, we would be canonizing Saints in Purgatory, which we don’t do. Why? Because we understand the superiority of Heaven to Purgatory. They indeed are 2 distinct designs of God. One for Purification. One for Glorification.

 

[jsussvsus]

DavidFilmer:

When good protestants die and find themselves in purgatory (but they knew nothing about purgatory in their earthly life), will they understand where they are and what is happening?

Remember, there is no basis for believing we will automatically acquire spiritual insight simply because we die.

Hi All
First of all do you realy mean good protestants or do you mean protestants who are faithful to Christ? I know alot of good people, including Catholics who don’t go to church but claim to be Christians. I don’t think there is such a place as purgatory. Purgatory is something brought about by Catholic leader’s years ago as a means of raising money for the church. They would charge a certain amount of money to people for praying lost loved ones out of this so called place of purging.
Thanks

 

[surfinpure]

jsussvsus:

Purgatory is something brought about by Catholic leader’s years ago as a means of raising money for the church. They would charge a certain amount of money to people for praying lost loved ones out of this so called place of purging.
Thanks

You are sorely misinformed, my friend. I would start by going here catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp and reading the truth.

 

[sonseeker]

DavidFilmer:

When good protestants die and find themselves in purgatory (but they knew nothing about purgatory in their earthly life), will they understand where they are and what is happening?

Remember, there is no basis for believing we will automatically acquire spiritual insight simply because we die.

There is no purgatory so the question is moot

 

[deb1]

Kristopher:

Dear deb1:

I noticed what you wrote: “…Everyone who is in Purgatory will eventually get into heaven.”

Fr. Carapi said, there is no difference between Heaven and Purgatory. For all intents and purposes, Heaven and Purgatory are the same, except the pain felt in Purgatory is excruciating, because the soul is extremely sensitive. It hurts quite a bit.

Most sincerely,

Kristopher

Thank you. I am still in RCIA so I appreciate learning more detail on my faith.

 

[Church_Militant]

jsussvsus:

Hi All
First of all do you realy mean good protestants or do you mean protestants who are faithful to Christ? I know alot of good people, including Catholics who don’t go to church but claim to be Christians. I don’t think there is such a place as purgatory. Purgatory is something brought about by Catholic leader’s years ago as a means of raising money for the church. They would charge a certain amount of money to people for praying lost loved ones out of this so called place of purging.
Thanks

For you who hold that there is no such post death state as Purgatory…

This is not true, There is ample evidence that the Bible implicitly teaches a Purgatory.

Begin with Matthew 12:32, which says, “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” Does tis not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Now think this through…There is no sin to forgive in heaven, right? Sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and permanent. So…Impicit “purgatory”

1st Corinthians 3:15 which says, “If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” Again this cannot refer to heaven or hell for the same reasons as above. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.

1st Peter 3:18-20 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.”

and 1st Peter 4:6 which says, “For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit” Note that it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them.

2nd Maccabees 12:44-46 which says, "44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. "
The same reasons apply here as to the first passages I gave you…

Note also that St. Paul says that the early church believed this in 1st Corinthians 15:29 which says, "Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? " He does not condemn this practice though it seems to have fallen out of practice…

The Jews also believe this and still do today (as if the passage from 2nd Maccabees doesn’t clearly show this). I offer info from my good friend Andy who is an Orthodox Jew who lives in Israel:

cont’d

 

[Church_Militant]

"Hi all!

Our prayer, the Mourner’s Kaddish, is for the benefit of the soul of the deceased & is believed to ease the spiritual status of the deceased’s soul as it goes through whatever trials & tribulations it may be subject to. Yes, we do believe in something akin to the Roman Catholic notion of Purgatory & thus saying the Mourner’s Kaddish would be similar to the Roman Catholic idea of praying for the souls in Purgatory.

Look at ou.org/yerushalayim/kadish.htm#Meaning

.

The text there is the (5 clause) Mourner’s Kaddish in Hebrew, transliterated English & English (you can also listen to it in RealAudio).

As I understand it, a soul that has sinned in this world has to pay for its actions/inactions in the next world. We do not automatically & necessarily divide souls into the entirely righteous who will therefore enjoy enternal bliss and the entirely evil who will therefore suffer eternal damnation. The degrees in between are infinite & we believe that God rewards/punishes each soul according to its good/not good actions. As I said, the recitation of the Kaddish prayer is believed to benefit the soul of the deceased as it goes through whatever trials and tribulations it has to endure in the next world.

In addition to the aforementioned Kaddish prayer (which is usually said by a son for a departed parent for 11 months after the day of burial, but which can also be said for 30 days for a spouse, child or sibling, particularly if none of these have children to say the Kaddish; the Kaddish is also recited on the anniversary of the burial), there are the Yizkor (literally: “He will remember”) and E-l Maleh Rahamim (literally: “God Full of Mercy”) prayers (see ou.org/yerushalayim/yizkor/) which are recited 4 times a year on Yom Kippur, the last day of Passover, Shavuot and Shemini Atzeret (see jewfaq.org/toc.htm for links to all of these holydays).

I submit the following excerpt (from jewfaq.org/death.htm):

Quote:
After the avelut [mourning] period is complete, the family of the deceased is not permitted to continue formal mourning; however, there are a few continuing acknowledgments of the decedent. Every year, on the anniversary of the death, family members observe the deceased’s Yahrzeit (Yiddish, lit. “anniversary”). On the Yahrzeit, sons recite Kaddish and take an aliyah (bless the Torah reading) in synagogue if possible, and all mourners light a candle in honor of the decedent that burns for 24 hours. In addition, during services on Yom Kippur, Shemini Atzeret, the last day of Passover, and Shavu’ot, after the haftarah reading in synagogue, close relatives recite the mourner’s prayer, Yizkor (“May He remember…”) in synagogue. Yahrzeit candles are also lit on those days.

(…).

Kaddish
Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner’s prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins “May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days …” and continues in much that vein. The real mourner’s prayer is E-l Maleh Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals.

Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners?

After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d, or to cry out against G-d’s injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan, a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss.

Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.

In addition to the Kaddish. it is believed that the recitation of the Yizkor and E-l Maleh Rahamim prayers are beneficial to the soul of the departed. On the anniversary of the burial, it is common to study some chapter of the Talmud or the Tanakh (what we call what Christians call the “Old Testament”), read a selection of Psalms, give to charity, etc. in honor/memory of the departed. This is also believed to be beneficial."Sincerest thanks to Stillsmallvoice!

I had already discovered this in talking to a devout Orthodox Jewish buddy of mine and Andy was kind enough to help out with all this info as well.

I hope this answers your questions on all this and provides you with the sure knowlege that in spite of allegations to the contrary, the concept of Purgatory is indeed quite scriptural.
Pax vobiscum my friends,

 

[surfinpure]

Excellent scripture references, Church Militant!

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Tank you, Church Militant! :clapping:

 

[catholic2]

“Good” Protestants is an oxymoron.

Ok, I know what you mean, but continuing on, there is no “good” anyone. See Mark 10:18

I’m sure that anyone who enters purgatory will have spiritual eyes to see and know where they are, and why.

 

[surfinpure]

catholic2:

Ok, I know what you mean, but continuing on, there is no “good” anyone. See Mark 10:18.

I know some Catholic apologists who disagree with you, but that is a different topic for a different thread.

 

[Lloydy]

Is Purgatory needed? Is the sacrifice of Christ not enough? I am forgiven of my sins I don’t see why I have to pay for them in purgatory. Purgatory is saying that Jesus’s sacrifice was not enough to remove your sins, which i don’t understand. Jesus paid it all, that is enough.