When good protestants die and are in purgatory, will they understand where they are?

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I believe Purgatory is where most Catholics will go. But hey, if our sins are forgiven (at death) whats the deal?
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Forgiveness does not mean we do not need to do something to atone for our transgressions.

For example, I might steal $1000 from you. Later, I confess to you that I did it and beg your forgiveness. If you are Merciful (as God is Merciful) you would forgive me (ie, not hold it against me), but if you are Just (as God is Just) then you expect me to repay the stolen property. Otherwise, I profit from wrongdoing (which abhors Justice).

If I am now impovershed, you may require only a token repayment, or maybe some small act of service to atone for my wrongdoing. But if you forgive the debt entirely (“aw, just forget about it”), you are not being Just (because Justice demands that there be SOME punishment for wrongdoing). Maybe you choose pure Mercy (and maybe you are under the false impression that this is the Christian way), but God is BOTH Merciful and Just, so He cannot simply disregard the Just nature of His Being. God Is what He Is, and He Is Just.

God is both Merciful and Just. This sounds like a contradiction, but it isn’t. Purgatory is one way that the Mercy and Justice of God are reconciled.
 
That’s an excellent explanation of the need for Purgatory, DavidFilmer. 👍
 
Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answering, spoke again in parables to them, saying: 2 The kingdom of heaven is likened to a king, who made a marriage for his son. 3 And he sent his servants, to call them that were invited to the marriage; and they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying: Tell them that were invited, Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my beeves and fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come ye to the marriage. 5 But they neglected, and went their own ways, one to his farm, and another to his merchandise.

6 And the rest laid hands on his servants, and having treated them contumeliously, put them to death. 7 But when the king had heard of it, he was angry, and sending his armies, he destroyed those murderers, and burnt their city. 8 Then he saith to his servants: The marriage indeed is ready; but they that were invited were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways; and as many as you shall find, call to the marriage. 10 And his servants going forth into the ways, gathered together all that they found, both bad and good: and the marriage was filled with guests.

11 And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. 12 And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? But he was silent. 13 Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen

This certainly seems to indicate a need for some proper preparation for the feast in question. I have always thought that the n-C position on confession is inadequate in the light of passages like this one. The whole context of scripture seems more clear than the proof texts that they offer and the rhetoric about the sufficiency of the Sacrifice on the cross, which Catholics fully ascribe to, but the n-C position is (IMO) a drastic over simplification of what the Bible really teaches.

I feel quite sure that since all of us face that particular judgement after we die that our n-C cousins will have had the whole situation mapped out for them by Our Lord before they (and we) find ourselves in that cleansing process.
Pax vobiscum,
 
A co-worker of mine is Lutheren and he asked me about purgatory and I told him it is where your soul goes for atonement, reparation and expiation. He said to me as long as you accept that Jesus died for our sins you go straight to Heaven. I asked him so you don’t have to pay for your sins, and he said Jesus allready paid for our sins. I tried to explain more deeply on purgatory to him but he walked away. Do protestants believe in purgatory, because I thought they didn’t?
 
Most Protestants reject purgatory and are taught that it’s unscriptural. One of their favorite attacks is “show me the word purgatory in the Bible” to which I always answer “show me the words Trinity and Incarnation in the Bible” since you believe in other implicit doctrines in the Word of God and yet reject one that is equally implicit?!
I suggest getting a copy of “Beginning Apologetics 1” From San Juan Catholic Seminars which offers great answers to this and a host of others such n-C objections. the whole series is outstanding and very affordable!
Pax tecum,
 
Church Militant:
Most Protestants reject purgatory and are taught that it’s unscriptural. One of their favorite attacks is “show me the word purgatory in the Bible” to which I always answer “show me the words Trinity and Incarnation in the Bible” since you believe in other implicit doctrines in the Word of God and yet reject one that is equally implicit?!
I suggest getting a copy of “Beginning Apologetics 1” From San Juan Catholic Seminars which offers great answers to this and a host of others such n-C objections. the whole series is outstanding and very affordable!
Pax tecum,
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Is the only support for purgatory found in the apocrapha? Purgatory was unknown in the early church for hundreds of year.

Peace<><
 
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kaycee:
Is the only support for purgatory found in the apocrapha? Purgatory was unknown in the early church for hundreds of year.

Peace<><
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Bunk!

No it’s not just in the Deuterocanonicals (to use the correct term for the books in question) it’s found in the New Testament as well, which you’d know if you read the articles in the ma(name removed by moderator)age library here and here
 
I have a Protestant friend who has questions about the doctrine of Purgatory. Does anyone know of Church Fathers/Doctors who spoke on the subject?
 
Church Militant:
Bunk!

No it’s not just in the Deuterocanonicals (to use the correct term for the books in question) it’s found in the New Testament as well, which you’d know if you read the articles in the ma(name removed by moderator)age library here and here
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the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “In the final analysis the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is based on tradition not Sacred Scripture.”

For at least the first two centuries there was **no mention ** of purgatory in the Church. In all the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr there is not the slightest allusion to the idea of purgatory.

Praying for the dead was becoming a common practice by the beginning of the third century but it does not, in itself, prove that the early Church believed in the existence of a purgatory. The written prayers which have survived, and the evidence from the catacombs and burial inscriptions indicate that the early Church viewed deceased Christians as residing in peace and happiness and the prayers offered were for them to have a greater experience of these. As early as Tertullian, in the late second and beginning of the third century, these prayers often use the Latin term refrigerium as a request of God on behalf of departed Christians, a term which means ‘refreshment’ or ‘to refresh’ and came to embody the concept of heavenly happiness. So the fact that the early Church prayed for the dead does not support the teaching of purgatory for the nature of the prayers themselves indicate the Church did not view the dead as residing in a place of suffering.
 
From one of the articles that I cited above, which some folks apparently don’t bother to read: Purgatory

Why No Protests?

Whenever a date is set for the “invention” of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that “true believers” in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.
 
kaycee,

It’s only proper that when you steal the material for an entire post from an article, you also cite it. Otherwise it’s known as plagiarism.

Best wishes,
RyanL
 
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RyanL:
kaycee,

It’s only proper that when you steal the material for an entire post from an article, you also cite it. Otherwise it’s known as plagiarism.

Best wishes,
RyanL
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Plagiarism: Copying the work of another writer or composer and then passing the results off as original work. In most colleges and universities, professors impose penalties on students who plagiarize the works of others.

I dont recall taking credit for the quote :eek: Just cutting and pasting to save time in typing what represents my beliefs. Kind of thought thats what we were doing here. :rolleyes:

If it were a term paper or something I published for money, or claimed credit for, you would certainly have a point.

If you really have a need to know sources I study I will certainly formalize my posts to you in the future. Your accusatory tone is certainly poisoning the well and not lending itself to a healthy discourse.
 
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kaycee:
Plagiarism: Copying the work of another writer or composer and then passing the results off as original work. In most colleges and universities, professors impose penalties on students who plagiarize the works of others.

I dont recall taking credit for the quote :eek: Just cutting and pasting to save time in typing what represents my beliefs. Kind of thought thats what we were doing here. :rolleyes:

If it were a term paper or something I published for money, or claimed credit for, you would certainly have a point.

If you really have a need to know sources I study I will certainly formalize my posts to you in the future. Your accusatory tone is certainly poisoning the well and not lending itself to a healthy discourse.
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Hi kaycee,

I believe Ryan is referring to the forum rules:

CONTENT RULES

  1. *]Do not paste articles from web sites into a post. If you wish to reference an article on the web, link to its web address, instead.
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Mickey:
Hi kaycee,

I believe Ryan is referring to the forum rules:

CONTENT RULES

  1. *]Do not paste articles from web sites into a post. If you wish to reference an article on the web, link to its web address, instead.
    *]Do not post copyrighted material.
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  1. I believe they are referring to entire articles. Not snippets. 🙂

    My snippets were certainly not copyrighted.
 
On my way:
A co-worker of mine is Lutheren and he asked me about purgatory and I told him it is where your soul goes for atonement, reparation and expiation. He said to me as long as you accept that Jesus died for our sins you go straight to Heaven. I asked him so you don’t have to pay for your sins, and he said Jesus allready paid for our sins. I tried to explain more deeply on purgatory to him but he walked away. Do protestants believe in purgatory, because I thought they didn’t?
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Jesus did “pay” for our sins. This is Catholic teaching. The council of Trent said we couldn’t add anything to what Jesus did for us. Purgatory isn’t about paying so much as it is about purification. Protestants view justification as a legal issue, ie., God declares us just, so we are and we go to Heaven. Catholics believe that God declares us just, then He makes us actually just (both groups agree this is santification, but Protestants don’t agree that it is needed for salvation, whereas Catholics do believe it is) and that if we aren’t ready when we die, we go to a place of purification so we’re ready to meet God and be with Him. We don’t know it’s exact nature, but we need it to be ready to “see Him as He is.” I think it’s kind of like a mud porch. You get cleaned up so you don’t track anything into the house. Some have suggested that it’s part of Heaven, the edge of it, as it were. C.S. Lewis believed in it and he was Protestant.
 
(Actually, Jesus didn’t pay for our sins. He made atonement for them. There is a very fine, but important, theological difference. [In fact, this is a point of theology that is a disagreement between the Catholic Church and some Protestants, and between different Protestant groups, as some believe He paid for them whereas others don’t.])
 
Lazerlike42 said:
(Actually, Jesus didn’t pay for our sins. He made atonement for them. There is a very fine, but important, theological difference. [In fact, this is a point of theology that is a disagreement between the Catholic Church and some Protestants, and between different Protestant groups, as some believe He paid for them whereas others don’t.])
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Hmmmm…could you explain this in more detail? I get the atonement, but I thought it was basically a synonym for “paid the price,” etc.
 
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DavidFilmer:
When good protestants die and find themselves in purgatory (but they knew nothing about purgatory in their earthly life), will they understand where they are and what is happening?

Remember, there is no basis for believing we will automatically acquire spiritual insight simply because we die.
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Nope. We’ll be looking around and asking, “Who are you guys?”
 
Charitable Catholic apologists who die in the grace of God, but in a state of temporal sin will be assigned as tour guides of Purgatory for our separated brothers and sisters.
 
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