T
- Status
M
MidnightSun12
Guest
I feel tremendous sorrow and fear for the future of western civilization…
M
manualman
Guest
How is marriage economically “out of reach” for poor people? Last time I checked, a marriage license was about $75. It’s divorce that is too expensive for the poor. And good riddance anyways. Marry once and make it work. This isn’t a crisis of economic opportunity, it’s a crisis of despair and ignorance. A happy marriage doesn’t require a white picket fence, a 401k and a college fund for the kids. It just doesn’t. Those things are icing on the cake (which is itself a dessert!). The relationship is the meat and potatoes. And the relationship doesn’t care if there is money or not.
A
AthenaC
Guest
I read a similar opinion article recently, basically saying something similar - that women have babies young because they are poor, rather than being poor because they have babies. I know many conservatives see the “poor people have babies young” studies and immediately jump on them as some sort of indication that having a baby young necessarily leads to poverty. As if individual choice has no bearing on one’s eventual outcome (and I can tell you from experience, becoming financially secure as a single mom is definitely doable, especially in America).
One reason to celebrate, though, is that these kids are becoming parents. They are embracing new life and are not aborting their children. Something to think about before we get on our high horse about young, unmarried parenthood.
One reason to celebrate, though, is that these kids are becoming parents. They are embracing new life and are not aborting their children. Something to think about before we get on our high horse about young, unmarried parenthood.
J
JimG
Guest
Former Clinton advisor William Galston said this:
“You need only do three things in this country to avoid poverty—finish high school, marry before having a child, and marry after the age of 20.
Only 8 percent of the families who do this are poor; 79 percent of those who fail to do this are poor.”
Finish high school
Marry before having a child.
Marry after age 20.
What makes these three things so difficult?
“You need only do three things in this country to avoid poverty—finish high school, marry before having a child, and marry after the age of 20.
Only 8 percent of the families who do this are poor; 79 percent of those who fail to do this are poor.”
Finish high school
Marry before having a child.
Marry after age 20.
What makes these three things so difficult?
T
TheTrueCentrist
Guest
Marriage only requires a $75 certificate, but I suspect that there are way more societal pressure coming into play than you’ve considered. They may not want to be perceived as having “eloped” or they may want to have a “real” wedding with reception and ceremony. There may be problems with credit, i.e. they may believe that one person’s bad credit would negatively affect the other if they married.
Also, from the article itself:
A
AthenaC
Guest
You mean that even the riff-raff of society has enough wisdom to take marriage more seriously than the $75 certificate?
Say it ain’t so!
In all seriousness, the article was very vague about the possible motivations for this, so it may be dicey to fill in the blanks, but it does reasonably follow that:
- If marriage is to be taken seriously, then -
- responsible marriage requires certain preconditions to be met. Usually those preconditions have to do with affluence, like finishing college, beginning a career, and being on the home ownership track. Thus -
- poor people lack what they see as preconditions for responsible marriage. Further -
- abstinence until one is “ready” for marriage in their late 30’s is not realistic for 99% of people (if they even see “readiness” on the horizon - see #2 and #3 above), and -
- put all that together, you have fertile, young, unmarried people, times lots of sex, divide by the failure rate of birth control, and you get more unwed parents.
Also, I would say that for people already on the college & career track, abstinence is still difficult / unrealistic for many, but at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel with regard to “readiness” for marriage. I think that makes a BIG difference.
M
manualman
Guest
Precisely my point. There are NOT “economic barriers to marriage” there are CULTURAL barriers in these communities. Instead of using lack of money as the scapegoat, they need to work on ironing out the real problems. I’ve been to my fair share of weddings in which the couple received permission to use the church hall (no alcohol) for the reception, somebody made a nice compilation CD and brought in a stereo for some dance music and the food was potluck. IMO, it lost nothing in substance compared to a $10,000 reception hall event. People who think this is an inferior wedding have a values problem, not an economic one.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
True,
I don’t see you as Centrist for here you favor no marriage and on another post you favor the legal acceptance of gay marriage.
Pro no marriage
Pro gay marriage
You falsely advertise that as it concerns Religion “yours” it is not mine and as it regards
“TheTrueCentrist”…this is false advertising…you lean away from the center.
J
JimG
Guest
It sounds as though the people discussed in the article value babies. They value being mothers. They value being fathers. They even value marriage, but they either don’t think the father (or mother) of the baby is good enough for marriage (“quality of the relationships”) or they fear divorce. (‘I don’t believe in divorce, so I can’t get married.’) I’ve also heard a phrase that goes something like this: “He’s good enough for a relationship but not good enough to be husband material.”)
They value sex, but they don’t value the babies enough to provide them with a father, a mother, and a marriage to help their future.
“Early childbearing is highly selective of girls whose characteristics—family background, cognitive ability, school performance, mental-health status, and so on—have already diminished their life chances so much that an early birth does little to reduce them further.”
It other words, things can’t really get much worse, so I might as well have a baby.
And the government can’t help but provide some incentives to that line of thinking. If it did not, it would be viewed as heartless and unwilling to help the poor.
I don’t know what the answer is; but previous generations of poor did not think the same way. They had largely intact families.
And actually, they may be wrong in thinking that the addition of a baby can’t make things much worse. A depression will make things worse for everybody, especially for the poor.
I’ve been reading Carle Zimmerman’s “Family and Civilization.” He notes only three crises in family structure during the course of recorded history, one during a period of Greek civilization, one during a period of Roman civilization, and one occurring now. In each case he sees the crisis in family structure as leading ultimately to civilizational collapse.
They value sex, but they don’t value the babies enough to provide them with a father, a mother, and a marriage to help their future.
“Early childbearing is highly selective of girls whose characteristics—family background, cognitive ability, school performance, mental-health status, and so on—have already diminished their life chances so much that an early birth does little to reduce them further.”
It other words, things can’t really get much worse, so I might as well have a baby.
And the government can’t help but provide some incentives to that line of thinking. If it did not, it would be viewed as heartless and unwilling to help the poor.
I don’t know what the answer is; but previous generations of poor did not think the same way. They had largely intact families.
And actually, they may be wrong in thinking that the addition of a baby can’t make things much worse. A depression will make things worse for everybody, especially for the poor.
I’ve been reading Carle Zimmerman’s “Family and Civilization.” He notes only three crises in family structure during the course of recorded history, one during a period of Greek civilization, one during a period of Roman civilization, and one occurring now. In each case he sees the crisis in family structure as leading ultimately to civilizational collapse.
C
Contarini
Guest
T
TheTrueCentrist
Guest
Oh, what did I say that was pro no marriage?
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Post 135
Re: SSM debate: the sterility objection
Untrue, Uncentric, not religion of mine it was here.
T
TheTrueCentrist
Guest
You asked why gays should get married. I asked you why anyone should get married to see if your answer would somehow inherently exclude gays. You did not answer.Post 135
Re: SSM debate: the sterility objection
Untrue, Uncentric, not religion of mine it was here.
A
Arizona_Mike
Guest
If someone is young and poor and deciding if he wants to marry the mother of his child(ren), he should consider the following:
In addition to the benefits to the children of having a positive male role model of commitment, there are substantial economic benefits to the father. When you are poor (I tell you from experience), you may not have money but you can leverage your social relationships. By making a permanent, legally and societally-recognized marriage, you are more able to expand those relationships from her family when you need help. Your wife’s father and mother and brothers now see you as a member of the family, not just the shiftless guy who knocked up their little girl.
If your car breaks down and you need a quick loan to get it running so you can get to your job and not be fired, you will have a better chance if you are a son-in-law, not the dude who shows up once a month to bounce the kid on your lap before taking off to hang out on the street corner.
If layoffs come, your boss will probably be less likely to select you if he knows you are supporting a wife and kid instead of a guy who spends all his money down at the local honky-tonk trolling for another hook-up.
If you get arrested for driving with a suspended license, the judge is more likely to cut you some slack if he knows you are the sole support of a baby boy, and you can show some level of personal responsibility by having gotten married, You have family members who are more likely to pay your bail. By hanging out with other married guys, you are less likely to get into trouble and have more social connections with a higher class of people.
You will be more ambitious and have a better chance to make something of yourself if you have a positive concrete goal (protecting and providing for your wife and children), as there are now higher expectations of you - if you avoid responsibilities, your friends and family will have much less respect for you if you are the dad and husband and not just the sperm donor.
When a (probably) white academic asserts that marriage is economically out of reach for poor people, you have to wonder at how really out-of-touch they are with the real world.
In addition to the benefits to the children of having a positive male role model of commitment, there are substantial economic benefits to the father. When you are poor (I tell you from experience), you may not have money but you can leverage your social relationships. By making a permanent, legally and societally-recognized marriage, you are more able to expand those relationships from her family when you need help. Your wife’s father and mother and brothers now see you as a member of the family, not just the shiftless guy who knocked up their little girl.
If your car breaks down and you need a quick loan to get it running so you can get to your job and not be fired, you will have a better chance if you are a son-in-law, not the dude who shows up once a month to bounce the kid on your lap before taking off to hang out on the street corner.
If layoffs come, your boss will probably be less likely to select you if he knows you are supporting a wife and kid instead of a guy who spends all his money down at the local honky-tonk trolling for another hook-up.
If you get arrested for driving with a suspended license, the judge is more likely to cut you some slack if he knows you are the sole support of a baby boy, and you can show some level of personal responsibility by having gotten married, You have family members who are more likely to pay your bail. By hanging out with other married guys, you are less likely to get into trouble and have more social connections with a higher class of people.
You will be more ambitious and have a better chance to make something of yourself if you have a positive concrete goal (protecting and providing for your wife and children), as there are now higher expectations of you - if you avoid responsibilities, your friends and family will have much less respect for you if you are the dad and husband and not just the sperm donor.
When a (probably) white academic asserts that marriage is economically out of reach for poor people, you have to wonder at how really out-of-touch they are with the real world.
E
eternalrest
Guest
It is not “those communities” as if poor people are in communities separate from everyone else. Some of the problem exists because of envy and condescension.
Middle-class people see themselves as superior to the poor, attributing their positive outcomes to free will/choice instead of the luck of healthy and married and prosperous parents; they are moving as far from the poor as possible; the poor end up not getting married because they buy into this concept of themselves as inferior and they see the only people willing to date them as inferior as well so don’t want to marry them. Even though they don’t get married, they still have sex and become unmarried parents accidentally.
One must wonder if the increased recent focus of Church goers on marriage, the decreased focus on celibacy in contrast to the focus during the middle ages, in the Bible, and declared infalliable at the Council of Trent is making more people jealous and resentful and uncelibate during the single years.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
One must wonder what you are talking about?
What Church goers cause you to wonder about marriage. What is evidence of a recent focus. What is a Church goer?
What is the focus on celibacy as it regards what you call the middle ages as opposed to now.
What are you speaking of in reference to the Bible?
What is it that was declared infallible at the Council of Trent.
How is it you conclude jealousy? About what? and resentment for what and how and what does celibacy have to do with marriage as you see it from this perspective?
F
feed_me
Guest
Amen, amen, amen. Thank you Jesus. Somebody gets it from experience.
S
SamH
Guest
It’s not - for many people it is as natural as breathing.
That’s why I have little respect for those that can’t be bothered with taking the smallest amount of personal responsibility in their own lives. And even less respect for those that are eager to seize power over those that refuse to empower themselves.
J
JimG
Guest
Personal responsibility is the key.
Could it be that our culture has made it a great deal easier to avoid personal responsibility?
Why take personal responsibility if you can be assured that someone else will take responsibility.
- Status