when he did

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Agreed! That God is wise is indeed just one piece of the Divine puzzle.

šŸ‘

I can think of at least two more pieces of the character of God. What about you?

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I am hesitant to dissect the ā€œcharacterā€ of God. I also was not trying to describe God as wise. Wisdom is a human quality derived from goodness and time lived, a mere reflection of God. Sounds as though you have something in mind, however.
 
I am hesitant to dissect the ā€œcharacterā€ of God. I also was not trying to describe God as wise. Wisdom is a human quality derived from goodness and time lived, a mere reflection of God. Sounds as though you have something in mind, however.
I’m not quite sure what I have in mind, yet, Biggie; but I am sure you speak the truth. No matter how big our thoughts, we are like toddlers considering the finer points of calculus when it comes to considering what God is! Considering what God is *like *is, perhaps, the best we can do. To that end, I suppose Saint Paul gives us some helpful advice:

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children …

(Ephesians 5:1)

It seems to me that if one correctly knows how to be like God, then one must also know what God is like. At least, it would be impossible to know if one is correctly imitating God if one does not know what God is like; don’t you think?
 
I’m not quite sure what I have in mind, yet, Biggie; but I am sure you speak the truth. No matter how big our thoughts, we are like toddlers considering the finer points of calculus when it comes to considering what God is! Considering what God is *like *is, perhaps, the best we can do. To that end, I suppose Saint Paul gives us some helpful advice:

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children …

(Ephesians 5:1)

It seems to me that if one correctly knows how to be like God, then one must also know what God is like. At least, it would be impossible to know if one is correctly imitating God if one does not know what God is like; don’t you think?
As I said earlier, I don’t think we can learn something about God he does not want us to know. But I think we should take heart because of Jesus. If we remember Jesus taught us to call God Papa, and said that when we see him, we see God, I just think he made it simple for us. My guess is we make it like calculus, not God.
 
As I said earlier, I don’t think we can learn something about God he does not want us to know. But I think we should take heart because of Jesus. If we remember Jesus taught us to call God Papa, and said that when we see him, we see God, I just think he made it simple for us. My guess is we make it like calculus, not God.
I agree.

Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God and Savior of Israel.

(Isaiah 45:15)

If God does not want to reveal Himself, we cannot possibly know Him. Yet, as you say, He revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. To know the character of Christ, it seems to follow, is to know the character of God the Father. To imitate Christ to the best our our knowledge and ability is to imitate the character of God. Don’t you agree, Biggie?
 
I agree.

Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God and Savior of Israel.

(Isaiah 45:15)

If God does not want to reveal Himself, we cannot possibly know Him. Yet, as you say, He revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. To know the character of Christ, it seems to follow, is to know the character of God the Father. To imitate Christ to the best our our knowledge and ability is to imitate the character of God. Don’t you agree, Biggie?
Yes, although I am still a little uncomfortable with the character thing. I guess it is fair to say Jesus had a character, but that seems a little understated.

Wouldn’t you say it is more than the behavior of Jesus that needs imitation, more than his mind, but really his heart? We are commanded to love God and love our neighbor. What does that mean?
 
Yes, neither God nor the Christ is ā€œpersonā€ in our human way of awareness. That attribution, as someone aptly stated, is a comfort, and all that implies.
 
Yes, although I am still a little uncomfortable with the character thing. I guess it is fair to say Jesus had a character, but that seems a little understated.

Wouldn’t you say it is more than the behavior of Jesus that needs imitation, more than his mind, but really his heart? We are commanded to love God and love our neighbor. What does that mean?
My understanding of heart is that it is equal to mind. At least, that’s what Greek scholars tell me. However, even if there is a distinction, I suppose what Christ has to say is worth considering:

Jesus replied: " ā€˜Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ā€˜Love your neighbor as yourself.’"

(Matthew 22:37-39)

Do you think Jesus was speaking of loving God with merely our words and deeds, or with our thoughts as well? My thought, at the moment, is that to imitate God, at least as much as I am able, is to love Him. And like a toddler trying to imitate his dad who loves him dearly, I suppose I’ll pale in comparison. But still, the process of trying to be like Him, with His hand guiding mine, and of trying to think like Him, with His thoughts guiding mine, make it all worthwhile.
 
Yes, neither God nor the Christ is ā€œpersonā€ in our human way of awareness. That attribution, as someone aptly stated, is a comfort, and all that implies.
Or perhaps Jesus was more of a person than you or I will ever be?

🤷
 
You might be someone worth actually having a conversation with at some point, other than on here. At least you seem to be curious, a quality many on here lack, believing perhaps that that great key to understanding is naught more than a temptation from an already highly questionable faith.

I will only say her that the nature of Jesus, particularly the teaching regarding what is called the ā€œHypostatic Union,ā€ is vastly misrepresented by Church teaching. If there was a historical Ieshua, Isa, or Iusu, whichever He actually would have gone by, and He did accomplish the Hypostatic Union, which from words (again vastly misunderstood) attributed to Him He did, there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that there is no higher state fundamentally possible in human form.

But having said that, I reiterate that the meaning and consequence of that, especially given what is called ā€œdialogic process,ā€ and other crucial factors, are vastly different than what the Church presents in its limited and stilted fashion regarding that state.
 
You might be someone worth actually having a conversation with at some point, other than on here. At least you seem to be curious, a quality many on here lack, believing perhaps that that great key to understanding is naught more than a temptation from an already highly questionable faith.

I will only say her that the nature of Jesus, particularly the teaching regarding what is called the ā€œHypostatic Union,ā€ is vastly misrepresented by Church teaching. If there was a historical Ieshua, Isa, or Iusu, whichever He actually would have gone by, and He did accomplish the Hypostatic Union, which from words (again vastly misunderstood) attributed to Him He did, there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that there is no higher state fundamentally possible in human form.

But having said that, I reiterate that the meaning and consequence of that, especially given what is called ā€œdialogic process,ā€ and other crucial factors, are vastly different than what the Church presents in its limited and stilted fashion regarding that state.
Detales, Christianity has a quite practical way that it’s dealt with what might be called ā€œthe problem of deathā€, something we’re pretty much helpless against by ourselves. How does your understanding resolve this question and, again, what role or importance does love play in this transformation you speak of?
 
Actually, fhansen, the christianist way is both deceptive and, in my opinion, dangerous due to its misleading dualisms. This is, off hand, evident from your calling death a ā€œproblem.ā€ And one of the greatest problems engendered by the christianist view is implied in your claim that we are helpless against it by ourselves. This is yet another dualism reserved for the subject/object mode of perception and evaluation that is typical of religionists not yet adept in the basis of spirituality that is beyond thought and its limitations. That is not to be flip about the sanctity of the passage of death, or to say that there is not comfort in having kindred spirits around one at that time. But in the last analysis, we each die ā€œalone,ā€ or on our own.

The key is in the Identity statements in the Bible, those statements in other traditions being known to be descriptive of actual states of understanding accessible through various means to those who make the effort, or who inadvertently succumb to the mental circumstances that lead to such a realization. That realization is of the Love Nature itself, which when known leaves no man alone. The feeling of being a discreet human ego is itself the ā€œfallā€ that has within it the seeds of its own resurrection. It is the way to this resurrection that has been obscured by the Church in its dialogic process as applied to the original Teachings that showed this Way in the Jesus story, or much earlier in the nearly identical Iusu (etymologically the same name, as well as -isius as in Theo- or Dion-isius.) story that was imported by the Hebrews from Egypt.*

Love itself is the Way, The Truth, and the Life, or Light. Since the transformation we speak of here is in the realm of identity>Identity, Jesus, (Ieshua) necessarily spoke of Himself as being One with, as do all who attain that state. But that is why Jesus was accused of blasphemy, isn’t it? Do you think He might fare better if he appeared today in a business suit and taught what He actually did then? I think not.

It is hard to swallow, I know. It takes many years to go from ā€œNO!ā€ to ā€œMaybeā€¦ā€ through much consideration of history and philosophy and deep introspection, to ā€œHoly God, I wasn’t decieved!!!ā€ Some are fortunate and see clearly due to some instance of insight through diligent work. Grace might be a good word for that. Some only ever perceive it as an intellectual understanding. However, the result is always shown as the fruit of the living understanding and practice of both forms of the Golden Rule, because at last the ā€œotherā€ is seen and understood as no different than self. That is the root of morality and justice. Why do you think the two great commandments are what they are? They are not just ā€œCatholic,ā€ fhansen, they are how it works. Any time, any place any culture, intellect, gender, whatever. It is just how it is. It is the function of Love itself welcoming back its own, even if they thought they were separated. It is also why it says from time immemorial to ā€œKnow ThySelf.ā€ That is neither a Gnostic nor a frivolous admonition.

Find, if you can, Maurice Nicoll’s The New Man: an interpretation of some parables and miracles of Christ. Look up the parable of the prodigal son. It is very instructive. You might also read the introductory material to Basic Self Knowledge as it is available on Amazon. For a record of the stringent self criticism and introspection necessary for such a transformation, one might read Pathways Through to Space by Franklin Merrel-Wolff. Or consider Aquinas’ last few months on Earth.

I have found, with great difficulty, because at first I didn’t have someone like me or my friends to point them, that we humans are very incompetent about how we think about religious matters, relying on mostly emotional and habitual information, even in the case of converts. It is useful in this regard to consider such a fun guidebook to religious sanity as the unfortunately titled Insights for the Age of Aquarius by Gina Cerminara. She takes the reader in a very well annotated way through considerations regarding religious thought that don’t even occur to the vast majority of the faithful. They didn’t to me.

It was very difficult for me until I found someone who opened a whole new world of meaning and understanding that made my former Catholicism pale. I know that is a strong statement, but being someone who was as conscientiously devotional as myself saying this, you might give it an ounce of consideration. How easy might it be to find one’s own belief lacking in answers to a radical conscious event in one’s life? But my pain at the failure of my birth religion to show competency in the matter of my own transformative experience was overcome and glorified in a new Way of understanding not spoken of in the Church, or too secretively for me to hear despite much probing, anyway. I now see how it is all there, really, but very, very obscured and difficult to get to. There are are simpler ways that yet respect what you have come to so far.

Love is on the field, my friend. It conquers all and is ALL, and is therefor all important.
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* You might read related posts #s 506, 522, 525, & 531 at [forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=387061&page=22](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=387061&page=22) Why Evolution Doesn't Matter...
 
Actually, fhansen, the christianist way is both deceptive and, in my opinion, dangerous due to its misleading dualisms. This is, off hand, evident from your calling death a ā€œproblem.ā€ And one of the greatest problems engendered by the christianist view is implied in your claim that we are helpless against it by ourselves. This is yet another dualism reserved for the subject/object mode of perception and evaluation that is typical of religionists not yet adept in the basis of spirituality that is beyond thought and its limitations. That is not to be flip about the sanctity of the passage of death, or to say that there is not comfort in having kindred spirits around one at that time. But in the last analysis, we each die ā€œalone,ā€ or on our own.
Well, I doubt that any religion created the ā€œproblemā€ I was speaking of. It’s simply the situation we find ourselves in-facing this unknown finality. I’ll tell you what, I’ll get my hands on a copy of Basic Self Knowledge but can you give me a clue as to how the non-problem of death becomes a non-problem for the average Joe?
 
Sorry, fhansen, I don’t know how to do that for someone else. It seems to me that all happens in the fullness of time. You can’t make someone see, only suggest by your own vision that there is more or different than what might be in another view. For my own part, I would be a heavy duty Catholic to this day had not the rug of my self-perception been unceremoniously and instantly pulled out from under me. My world was no longer the world of a ā€œnormalā€ person, as it now includs experiential information about human nature that was not and is not, to my best perception, even alluded to in Catholic teaching as it is understood in consensus. It is there but founded on assumptions that are prophylactic to its actual and original intent. This can be experienced, as I have often stated.

As for ā€œdeath,ā€ here is a short summation that works for me, and is of the Path I often speak of, which saved me from going bonkers against the impenetrability of christianism. It is from a contemporary of my Mentor’s, whose writing he introduced me to, among that of many others:

"*The Real does not die, the unreal never lived.

Once you know that death happens to the body and not to you, you just watch your body falling off like a discarded garment.

The Real you is timeless and beyond birth and death. The body will survive as long as it is needed. It is not important that it should live long*." ~Nisargadatta

My own Mentor, once when I was speaking with him privately, interrupted a thought and after pausing said "*When you are dying, it is good to remember *ā€˜I am not this.’ "
 
"The Real does not die, the unreal never lived.
This, I believe to be true.
Detales;6067336:
Once you know that death happens to the body and not to you, you just watch your body falling off like a discarded garment.

The Real you is timeless and beyond birth and death. The body will survive as long as it is needed. It is not important that it should live long
." ~Nisargadatta

My own Mentor, once when I was speaking with him privately, interrupted a thought and after pausing said "*When you are dying, it is good to remember *ā€˜I am not this.’ "
Well, there’re lots of people who say such things but if I hear correctly you’re saying these are more than just words-they’re concepts that can be experienced directly. In any case it’s an important question for people no matter what their background otherwise no one would bother addressing it at all-whether individuals or religions. In Christianity the resurrection achieves this in us-grace, we believe, empowering us to believe something we otherwise cannot attain knowledge of on our own-taking it beyond mere words. Does your own experience satisfy or answer this question that deeply?
 
Yes, it does, as it removes the artificial ā€œus-graceā€ limitation which is the consensus prophylactic of christianism and puts it on experiential ground, even if an intellectual scaffolding may at first need to be built to perceive it. That is why I recommend the readings that I do. Faith is useless in this matter. But how would that be different from the acquisition of any other skill? Mine just happened to precipitate suddenly, as is sometimes the case. But then it required a stabilization period and the discovery of the appropriate cognative line for anchoring it in the ā€œeverydayā€ world. I was supremely lucky* in that I found that.

And while the ā€œus-graceā€ as you say empowers belief, belief is not yet the experience. As you may observe, one of the most common religionist errors is to equate faith with knowledge. It may be, but as one poster so eloquently put it, faith is ā€œsynthetic knowledge.ā€ That experience I refer to is an all consuming certainty. As they say in Borneo, ā€œAll knowledge is theoretical until it is in the muscle.ā€ The experience I’m alluding to is beyond being in the muscle, though that is a good analogy. It is with absolute certainty that it is beyond faith, which as I often say yet operates only within the subject/object mode of common human perception. If you could understand what I’m saying, we might change the title of this thread form ā€œWhen He didā€ to ā€œWhen He does.ā€
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* I had, though, been for many years praying intensely for wWisdom and understanding beyond the ordinary.
 
Yes, it does, as it removes the artificial ā€œus-graceā€ limitation which is the consensus prophylactic of christianism and puts it on experiential ground, even if an intellectual scaffolding may at first need to be built to perceive it. That is why I recommend the readings that I do. Faith is useless in this matter. But how would that be different from the acquisition of any other skill? Mine just happened to precipitate suddenly, as is sometimes the case. But then it required a stabilization period and the discovery of the appropriate cognative line for anchoring it in the ā€œeverydayā€ world. I was supremely lucky* in that I found that.

And while the ā€œus-graceā€ as you say empowers belief, belief is not yet the experience. As you may observe, one of the most common religionist errors is to equate faith with knowledge. It may be, but as one poster so eloquently put it, faith is ā€œsynthetic knowledge.ā€ That experience I refer to is an all consuming certainty. As they say in Borneo, ā€œAll knowledge is theoretical until it is in the muscle.ā€ The experience I’m alluding to is beyond being in the muscle, though that is a good analogy. It is with absolute certainty that it is beyond faith, which as I often say yet operates only within the subject/object mode of common human perception. If you could understand what I’m saying, we might change the title of this thread form ā€œWhen He didā€ to ā€œWhen He does.ā€
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* I had, though, been for many years praying intensely for wWisdom and understanding beyond the ordinary.
Well, I have no way of knowing if your experience is superior but ā€œus-graceā€* is* an experience. Anyway, I don’t agree that faith is synthetic knowledge but it’s admittedly a dimmer knowledge than we’ll have later. This later knowledge has been confirmed to me in no uncertain terms with an experience in which all was plain to ā€œseeā€. If I could continue on with that vision permanently now I certainly would do so but I didn’t orchestrate it to begin with. The only part I played in fact, was to be willing to die for another-the rest seemed to come as response to that love-a love I didn’t know I had until it then. It’s a long story.
 
You might be someone worth actually having a conversation with at some point, other than on here. At least you seem to be curious, a quality many on here lack, believing perhaps that that great key to understanding is naught more than a temptation from an already highly questionable faith. …
Yes, perhaps it’s both a blessing and a curse to admit I don’t know. At least, I suppose the truth that I don’t know has set me from from partisan religion.

Now, the partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between him and me at the present moment is merely this—that whereas he seeks to convince his hearers that what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me.

– Socrates (Phaedo)
 
True Knowledge comes from the gut certainty that one does not know anything other than provisionally, except for the undeniable that ā€œI amā€ and the door to adoration that that provides. Spirituality may be approached when the subject/object mode is transcended and included by re-alignment to the Divine.
 
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