"When in Rome..."

[McKevin]

I’m a convert from a holiness church, and I’ve got a bad case of Catholic culture shock

I joined the choir and the language that the choir members use during practice would be bleeped out on broadcast TV…

I joined an advisory committee and experienced cussing and off color jokes during the retreat…

I went on a CRHP retreat and every subsequent meeting has had a fellowship time that boils down to a bunch of guys sitting around drinking beer and telling jokes…

I volunteered at the festival and it was all about the beer and gambling…

I went on a mission trip with our parish and rum ruled the nest in the evenings…

I’m still involved in most of these ministries but am finding them to be more and more of a spiritual drain… The only place I see Catholics behaving like the Christians I grew up with is at Mass, and even then it seems like the majority are just going through the motions…now that I’m Catholic, should I be more open-minded and non-judgmental and accept this culture? Perhaps I need to lighten up and join in with the “fun”?

 

[jbuck919]

This is most unfortunate. Catholics are terribly venial in what were once considered minor matters (smoking, drinking, cussing) and even priests routinely indulged. I do not defend it, but it is there. Knowing this, and being senstitive to it, why did you become a Catholic in the first place?

 

[Aureole]

No, you need not do anything you really don’t want to. Just take everything with patience and keep doing what you’re doing. Sometime someone may ask you about it and you can just explain it simply that you think such-and-such inappropriate or simply impolite. Off-colour jokes should not be said though, perhaps you could bring it up to whoever is in charge privately?

Forgive my ignorance on this but I’ve never heard the term “holiness church”, what does it mean?

 

[Ghosty]

Having not seen the behavior in question I can only go off of what you’ve said.

One thing you’ll have to adjust to is that Catholics quite simply aren’t the Christians you grew up with. The Catholic tradition is Apostolic, and in the Apostolic tradition there is no prohibition on drinking or light gambling and such. Getting together and having a beer is not only a legitimate activity, but can actually be a great bonding experience for guys (and gals). I don’t know what tradition you come from, but I know of people from Protestant denominations that forbid all alcohol, dancing, gambling, heavy music, ect (the Church of the Nazarene, for example, forbids these things and is a “holiness church”). That is simply not going to be the case in 99% of the Catholic Church (except for the monasteries and convents, but then they’ll still likely have some alcohol, especially the monks ).

Now, if people are getting truly rip-roaring drunk, not able to keep track of themselves or their behavior, then we have a problem. Given that you seem to come from a tradition in which ALL drinking is frowned upon, however, I can’t determine if that’s the case given your descriptions.

As for foul language and off-color jokes, that really depends on the company you keep. There are words that I think of as every day vocabulary that some consider foul language (such as the common British p-word for urinating, and the c-word for defecating). If those words were removed from my vocabulary, I barely remember how to speak of those functions, as those are the words I was raised with and they were the GOOD words used in opposition to the more common foul words.

Jokes fall into a similar category. If the jokes are about deviant sexual behavior then that is generally frowned upon and a solid case could be made that they’re entirely inappropriate. If they’re jokes about bodily functions, that would be dinner talk at my place

So in short, you really might need to just loosen up and join the fun (especially if you’re a former Nazarene; my best friend is a former Nazarene, so I know of what I speak ), but then again they might really be pushing boundaries. If you’re new I would recommend observing for a bit and seeing how others react. If it’s a specific group of people that are being nasty in your view, and they seem to be set apart from the rest of the community, then it might not be you. If something really offends you, rather than merely making you uncomfortable, don’t be afraid to say something politely about it. If they respond rudely then you know where they stand and can react accordingly, but they just might be unaware of your problems with their behavior. You might even help to get them straightened out and flying right!

Hope that helps!

 

[McKevin]

This is most unfortunate. Catholics are terribly venial in what were once considered minor matters (smoking, drinking, cussing) and even priests routinely indulged. I do not defend it, but it is there. Knowing this, and being senstitive to it, why did you become a Catholic in the first place?

I went to RCIA at the prodding of some friends from work and after listening to Catholic radio, mainly the Catholic Answers radio show. During the RCIA process the doctine of the Eucharist was introduced to me for the first time! The new understanding of John 6 is what commanded me to conversion…but now that I’m here I’m thinking that maybe I need to lighten up a little bit?

 

[McKevin]

No, you need not do anything you really don’t want to. Just take everything with patience and keep doing what you’re doing. Sometime someone may ask you about it and you can just explain it simply that you think such-and-such inappropriate or simply impolite. Off-colour jokes should not be said though, perhaps you could bring it up to whoever is in charge privately?

Forgive my ignorance on this but I’ve never heard the term “holiness church”, what does it mean?

Thanks for the response, I’m a PK, and was raised in a non-denominational church closely associated in doctrine with the Church of the Nazarene and later joined the Nazarene church.

 

[McKevin]

So in short, you really might need to just loosen up and join the fun (especially if you’re a former Nazarene; my best friend is a former Nazarene, so I know of what I speak

Thanks for the response.

Yep, that’s me how has your friend adapted? I would guess that they experienced some if not all of what I’m going through.

 

[VociMike]

I think they should be challenged for unsavory words or actions (not convinced that “drinking beer” would qualify, but foul language and off-color jokes probably would). Maybe they just need somebody like you to provide them with some collective spine to do the right thing. Or maybe they just don’t care. The only way to find out is to speak up, charitably but unapologetically. Maybe they need to be shamed into behaving in a more Christ-like manner. But it all depends on how bad the language actually is, and not being there, none of us can really judge.

As for the choir, try talking to the director first.

 

[Ghosty]

Thanks for the response.

Yep, that’s me how has your friend adapted? I would guess that they experienced some if not all of what I’m going through.

I just knew you had Nazarene in ya.

My friend is still adapting a bit, but she’s aware of when she’s simply being overly sensitive (by general Catholic standards), and when other people are being too lax. One of the ways she learned to handle the alcohol issue was find an alcohol she enjoyed, and treat herself to it. She’s not much of a drinker, and since she hasn’t been able to find that brand anymore she doesn’t drink at all, but she’s not opposed to it.

I think the biggest thing is to keep your prayer life strong, and to realize that the people around you may indeed be very good Christians. Get to know them on the inside and see if they are good people, and if they are that may help you to see where the boundaries of morality actually are. This isn’t a sure thing, as some people seem very nice while living in atrocious sin, but at the very least it will help you to see them as people and not as actions.

Beyond that I’ll ask my friend if she has any advice for you that she can share from personal experience.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Ghosty]

I think they should be challenged for unsavory words or actions (not sure that “drinking beer” would qualify, but foul language and off-color jokes would). Maybe they just need somebody like you to provide them with some collective spine to do the right thing. Or maybe they just don’t care. The only way to find out is to speak up, charitably but unapologetically. Maybe they need to be shamed into behaving in a more Christ-like manner.

As for the choir, try talking to the director first.

The only thing is that the Nazarene perception of “foul language” is pretty extreme by most standards. Not faulting it, just pointing out that what even the average faithful Catholic might consider to be merely low-brow words, a Nazarene might consider nigh-unto blasphemy. Same goes with off-color jokes.

I want to stress, however, that this isn’t necessarily the case. These people could very well be acting HIGHLY inappropriately. I only bring this up because I’m familiar with the Nazarene boundaries due to my relations with former and current Nazarenes. It’s hard to judge second-hand what is going to far morally on the part of McKevin’s associates, and what is simply going beyond McKevin’s comfort level. That’s why I recommend a bit of a “wait-and-see” approach, as the lines between acceptable behavior and unacceptable behavior (by Catholic moral standards) may become more apparent as time goes on.

Most importantly, though, is to not be afraid to speak up, and DON’T feel pressured to “join in” with anything that makes you uncomfortable, even if “all the Catholics are doing it” (good luck trying to find an alcohol-free adult dinner among Catholics, for example).

Peace and God bless!

 

[McKevin]

but at the very least it will help you to see them as people and not as actions.

Beyond that I’ll ask my friend if she has any advice for you that she can share from personal experience.

Excellent choice of words: see them as people and not as actions and I do not try and judge them, it’s just killing my spirit. It would be great to hear from your friend’s experience. Thx.

God bless you with peace, too!

 

[McKevin]

The only thing is that the Nazarene perception of “foul language” is pretty extreme by most standards. Not faulting it, just pointing out that what even the average faithful Catholic might consider to be merely low-brow words, a Nazarene might consider nigh-unto blasphemy.

Quite true for most instances that I’m referring to, however, a spiritual director in CRHP was quite fond of taking the Lord’s name in vain and there were some F*bombs falling around the room. But in the choir it is basically rated “PG”. A little more that the words you referred to in an earlier post, but nothing you don’t hear on TV every 5 minutes.

 

[tdgesq]

The Trappist monks make very tasty beer. Chimay is a world renowned brew. Just drink it in moderation.

 

[amills]

McKevin - thank you for joining the Catholic Church. It sounds like you some of these people are displaying inappropriate behavior - even from a Catholic. You do not have to change the values you have. Cussing is not acceptable and you certainly can request they refrain from it in your presence. I am a Catholic and I do not allow it where I work. Drinking does not have to be the norm either. The question is are they doing this in excess? 40% of Americans do not drink at all or consume less then 12 alcholic beverages a year. (According to recent article in WSJ)

You may want to check with the CCC on gambling - is it just innocent fun or is it beyond that? Go ahead and question them about their behaviour if you feel up to it. We could use good men like you to convert the Catholics to living their faith. They certainly should know better than to tell off colored jokes.

 

[rwoehmke]

Unfortunately, many Catholics have become in-distingushable from the common crowd. In the last 40 years the language used by almost everyone, including woman. has become absolutely terrible when compared with what was acceptable in polite company when I was a young man. The Catholic Church has never forbidden the moderate use of alcohol or gambling, but in my opinion many have become obsessed with drinking to excess and bragging about it. Only the callow “kids” would have done that 50 years ago. I think you are right to be offended by what you have observed and would recommend trying a different parish and or crowd to hang with. Not all Catholics have joined the common crowd. Jesus expects more than this crude behavior from his followers, but I am beginning to think many just don’t care. They want to fit in with those who are crude, who make little effort to control their behavior. One warning though, I am 70 years old, grew up with a lumberjack grandfather who could cursw and swear like a trooper, but never in front of women and never in a social situation. In all those years I never once heard my granddads or my father use an obscenity like the f word. Yeah, we’ve come a long way baby! I wonder are there still parishes with a Holy Name Society?

 

[francisca]

I’m a convert from a holiness church, and I’ve got a bad case of Catholic culture shock

Could you please elaborate your word “a holiness church”, is it a denomination name or something?

I joined an advisory committee and experienced cussing and off color jokes during the retreat…

During retreat? Really? What advisory commitee was it?

I went on a CRHP retreat and every subsequent meeting has had a fellowship time that boils down to a bunch of guys sitting around drinking beer and telling jokes…

Drinking beer during retreat… when did that happened? In between sessions?

I volunteered at the festival and it was all about the beer and gambling…

I went on a mission trip with our parish and rum ruled the nest in the evenings…

What festival and which mission trip?
I think you are quite busy.

I’m still involved in most of these ministries but am finding them to be more and more of a spiritual drain… The only place I see Catholics behaving like the Christians I grew up with is at Mass, and even then it seems like the majority are just going through the motions…now that I’m Catholic, should I be more open-minded and non-judgmental and accept this culture? Perhaps I need to lighten up and join in with the “fun”?

You are free to choose which “culture” you would like to join.

 

[Zooey]

Could you please elaborate your word “a holiness church”, is it a denomination name or something?

.

Holiness churches are generally the most conservative denominations in the Wesleyan/Methodist tradition. (I grew up in the Free Methodist Church, with a God’s Bible School pastor…This is not going to mean much to most, but McKevin will, I am sure, recognize whence I sprang!!)
The name comes from a particular doctrinal teaching called Entire Sanctification, which springs largely from the writings of Charles Wesley, who was** much** more conservative than his more famous brother John…Briefly, there is a belief that complete holiness (freedom from even the desire to sin) is a special work of grace which is available to those who are born again. (In the evangelical sense).
Among the things that are prohibited by various groups within the holiness fold are: dancing, make-up, jewelry ( sometimes including wedding bands), movie attendance, work and/or shopping on Sunday ( & often no eating out either; one pastor forbade children playing out of doors). There are often strict dress codes–no slacks for women, long hair for women & short for men, etc…No alcohol usage ( not even medicinally), no smoking.
Many people I knew growing up (including my own grandmother) considered “gosh”, “darn”, & “heck” to be near to swearing–certainly not allowed! So I can appreciate the sense of shock…
Actually, if I had to make a comparison that the average Catholic might recognize, I would say that it might be something like being in a Carmelite convent/monastery for several decades, & then going out into the world again…Definite culture shock!!
I have experienced something similar as a United Methodist…I am on the committee that is in charge of parsonage repairs, & the 1st time I saw my pastor’s wine rack while checking on the furnace in the cellar, I was speechless…and I have a wine rack of my own these days!!!

Oh–If a “Holy Name Society” is what I think it is, McKevin, would probably fit right in!! (I suppose it’s beyond all hope that there might be one in the UMC??? Yeah, I was afraid of that…).

 

[Ghosty]

Many people I knew growing up (including my own grandmother) considered “gosh”, “darn”, & “heck” to be near to swearing–certainly not allowed! So I can appreciate the sense of shock…

Yeah, this is exactly what I was thinking of when I read “former holiness Christian”. It’s hard for most of us, even conservative Catholics, to comprehend the culture that conservative Nazarenes have, for example. Often times when we hear things like “they were using foul language” we just automatically assume that the person is talking about words that we would consider foul, when in fact they may have a TOTALLY different classification. This is especially true of the holiness movement in comparison to even solid, conservative Catholics.

Now I just want to be clear that my advice to “loosen up” is not to say that there is anything wrong with McKevin’s sensitivities, in fact his/her friends could learn from them. It’s just that if McKevin is from a Nazarene background, then McKevin might as well plan to move to the moon if they want to survive being Catholic, unless they’re willing to “loosen up” a little bit.

McKevin: That being said, there certainly are some troubling things going on as you’ve now described. They shouldn’t be taking the Lord’s name in vain under any circumstances. Sometimes it just pops out, and we can’t judge someone on the matter, but it is a very bad habit that lends itself to sin and should be corrected over time. You can encourage your friends to be more careful about such things without beating them over the head or making them feel like child-killers. A simple “Now, now…” type of correction may be enough to help them grow and improve.

F-bombs are definately offensive to many ears, and while I won’t excuse their use I will say that for some folks it really is just the culture they were raised in (I know that’s true of me). While I’ve easily broken the misuse of God’s name/s, I’ve don’t think I’ll ever fully break the use of the f-word, though I have learned to control it and not throw it all over the place. It’s just plain hard for me to view it as inherently evil, however, and unless I do I don’t see myself losing it completely. That doesn’t make it right, it’s just a feature of mine that isn’t pretty but isn’t likely to go away soon. So try to understand that even as you help to correct your friend and help them to grow

Peace and God bless!

 

[francisca]

Holiness churches are generally the most conservative denominations in the Wesleyan/Methodist tradition.

I have never known about it.

Does these people live in secluded area or something? I mean where I come from, most people does not drink alcohol very much. It does not mean that I do not know that there are some people out there who drinks more than where I come from.

 

[Verita]

McKevin, I know how you feel. I grew up in a non denominational church and in my family drinking at all and swearing were absolutely not allowed. I’ve only had one sip of alcohol my entire life and that was champagne at a wedding. (It was awful too.) I married into a very Irish, very Catholic family who indulge in both of those things. Fortunately my husband isn’t much of a drinker, but I’m always a bit uncomfortable when we visit his father and I watch him down beer after beer while we’re just sitting and talking. I do have to scold my husband again and again on the swearing because he does it in front of our daughter.

The swearing I think is a worse offense. We’ve been instructed again and again in the Bible to be careful of what comes out of our mouths. Not only that but I think supplementing your language with swear words shows a lack of intelligence, but that’s just me. If you have something meaningful to say why pepper it with meaningless words? If the language were really that bad (bad enough so that they’re using the f word) I would definetly say something. Tell them their constant swearing makes you uncomfortable. As Christians they should at the very least respect your request. At the most it should inspire them to clean up their language.

As for the drinking, I wouldn’t worry about it too much as long as it isn’t leading to drunkenness. After all, even Jesus drank wine.