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Newbie2
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What is 4-D?
When Is a Baby Not a Baby?
- Thread starter The_Reginator
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surritter
Guest
Four-dimensional. A flat image is 2-D, and a picture that shows shadows for depth can be called 3-D (though not true 3-D like at the movies). And the fourth dimension would be time; instead of a still picture, it’s a moving image or a live camera, if you will. Obviously this is the most lifelike representation of the unborn baby, and is a factor in changing hearts and minds about the necessity to protect the unborn.
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TheGreatestLove
Guest
How Sad that women still murder their own babies!
Yah murder!
When the doctor says a woman is pregant guess what? its because there is a baby inside her!
What a horrid cowardly act- to kill one that cannot defend itself! Kinda like a bully huh?
‘Jesus said He who does unto these children does unto me’
Reflect on that for a bit…
Such a beautiful gift from God-The Gift of Life-I wonder if those women who have abortions-thought of what it would be like to have been aborted. What a subtle word for such a horrific act.
It is criminal and should be deemed as such!
Yah murder!
When the doctor says a woman is pregant guess what? its because there is a baby inside her!
What a horrid cowardly act- to kill one that cannot defend itself! Kinda like a bully huh?
‘Jesus said He who does unto these children does unto me’
Reflect on that for a bit…
Such a beautiful gift from God-The Gift of Life-I wonder if those women who have abortions-thought of what it would be like to have been aborted. What a subtle word for such a horrific act.
It is criminal and should be deemed as such!
The_Reginator
Active member
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Ghosty
Guest
I have always been pro-life, even when I was an atheist, and I’ve also always been appalled by these kinds of images. I haven’t seen any studies about their effectiveness, but anecdotally I have only ever heard negative responses to them. Pro-choice people that I’ve known have only had their attitudes hardened by such images because the images don’t end up reflecting on the abortionists, but on the people holding up the images.
The images are gruesome and repellant by design, and they are being held up by pro-lifers; the natural association the human mind makes is that pro-lifers are gruesome and repellant. If I’m holding up a picture of feces, you will associate me with feces; if the picture at the bottom of my posts was a bloody decapitation, what would you associate me with? This is basic human psychology and I’m surprised that pro-lifers who support these images being used don’t realize this.
Peace and God bless!
The images are gruesome and repellant by design, and they are being held up by pro-lifers; the natural association the human mind makes is that pro-lifers are gruesome and repellant. If I’m holding up a picture of feces, you will associate me with feces; if the picture at the bottom of my posts was a bloody decapitation, what would you associate me with? This is basic human psychology and I’m surprised that pro-lifers who support these images being used don’t realize this.
Peace and God bless!
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surritter
Guest
I’ve heard anecdotes of these images having a positive impact. You’ve heard some that had a negative impact. So they will have differing results on people. I guess the key is to use them where they will have more chance of resulting in a positive impact. My estimation is that these positive opportunities are in secular environments where people really have no clue that the baby is a distinct biological person. If a scientific image only hardens a person’s heart, then it might be because of inherent guilt that he or she is suppressing. But they are no longer ignorant to what an abortion really is.
I also charitably disagree here! Why must the act of holding an abhorrent picture makes people think that the holder is abhorrent or gruesome? Are Jews morbid or disgusting for having museums/displays about the Nazi Holocaust? No – they are reminding all of us that evil is real.
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Warrior1979
Guest
I am pro-lifer and an adoptive parent. I believe it is entirely inappropriate to have these pictures displayed in public, especially where children can see them. I personally consider pro-lifers displaying this type of material in public disturbed individuals with no moral decency or common sense, and adversely affecting their cause.
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Ghosty
Guest
It is precisely in secular environments where these images do the most damage. Nobody with a modicum of education in human development (from a public school sex ed class, for example) doesn’t realize what a fetus looks like, and a chopped up fetus is still a chopped up non-person to them. As for feelings of guilt, it might play some part but I don’t think it plays as big a part as some pro-lifers think it does. They would have the same reaction to graphic video from a slaughterhouse, or pictures of chopped up cats.
It’s fundamental human psychology, not a conscious reaction. You can disagree with the science of psychological association if you want, but you’re on the wrong side of science. The fact is that when two images are placed side by side, the mind naturally associates them, and in the case of abortion images that cause discomfort and anger (whether from guilt or not) the people holding the image will be associated with the image. It’s true for many things, not just pictures. If you look at a picture of a person and a soft Mozart piece is playing you will have a different reaction to them than if heavy metal was playing when you saw their image.
In this case museums and displays are very different from holding up pictures. If I were to walk around with a t-shirt with a color image of a child being eaten by a cougar then people would have a visceral reaction to me and associate me with that gruesome image that made them uncomfortable. They wouldn’t be thinking about the need to supervise our children in the wilderness, they’d be seeing me as a sick person who surrounds myself with disturbing images and who makes them uncomfortable; the image would mentally “bleed” onto their perception of me. The same would be true if I walked around in a t-shirt with holocaust victims on it.
A museum about the horrors of abortion would be something entirely different than pushing such images on the public with my own hands as the images wouldn’t be directly associated with the people who sponsored the museum, unlike when they hold the pictures up in public.
Peace and God bless!
The_Reginator
Active member
As I said in my OP, I’ve never been too sure about how I feel about the public display of gruesome images of abortions.
This thread has become in interesting exchange of ideas and opinions.
Thanks for responding!
At the moment I am tending to think that gruesome images of these poor babies must be made available for educational purposes. But it does sound like we need to carefully consider when and where to share them. :twocents:
This thread has become in interesting exchange of ideas and opinions.
Thanks for responding!
At the moment I am tending to think that gruesome images of these poor babies must be made available for educational purposes. But it does sound like we need to carefully consider when and where to share them. :twocents:
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wondrousgnat
Guest
I have picketed many times but never carried a picture. I am undecided, not opposed to it yet not comfortable either. But one time a driver pulled over and swore at me about the pictures because his children might see them. I asked him what video games his kids play and does he ever watch CSI. He left without answering.
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SecretGarden
Guest
I just wrote a long paper on abortion for my bioethics class. If you think fetus isn’t a baby, look at a picture of a 9 week old fetus (non abortive one.) Look closely and see that it closely resembles a baby. Look at another picture of one at 19 weeks that is sucking its thumb. In both cases, it has everything a human has from arms, legs a head as well as an eye. Then research the methods of abortion such as the vacuum, and D&C. The procedures are extremely in humane. Look at the abortive method called Partial abortion. All three procedures are appalling.
I also suggest that people take a look at their bibles. The following two passages refer to the womb. If a person wasn’t a person inside the womb, I highly doubt these bible references would be written as it is.
Psalm 139:13-16 takes it to another level “For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.” (NKJV)
I also suggest that people take a look at their bibles. The following two passages refer to the womb. If a person wasn’t a person inside the womb, I highly doubt these bible references would be written as it is.
Code:
Jeremiah 1:5 states: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” (New King James Version (NKJV)) Thus showing that even before a person was living outside his or her mother’s womb, they had a calling.You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.” (NKJV)
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
Thanks for helping me out! Yes, it is a real-time moving image of the baby inside the mom’s womb. Like the development movies you can see on YouTube. The machine is quite expensive but the KofC helped pay for it. It makes such a difference when we can gesture to women to go across the street and get an ultrasound for FREE. Otherwise it would be hard for us to ever reach anyone since PP has moved to their mega-death-center with parking lots fully enclosed by gates and fences.
The images of aborted babies sparked a lot of discussion on the nearby college campus. The students stood and talked about all of the images, which range from slavery to Nazi Germany to genocide in Africa, to the aborted babies. The campus feminists showed up late on the 1st day, causing a ruckus but even that drew more attention to the display. There are no children on a college campus, and the students can handle seeing graphic photos in the right context. Go to the GAP website and look at the photos. It has changed minds and hearts. At the PP clinic - not so much. The escorts tell the clients lies about us and call us “protesters,” so we need to be careful not to look like we are out to hurt women in any way, or we become the bad guys.
Genocide Awareness Project
Before conception and after they become a toddler.
They wouldn’t care, just like smokers with the lung pictures or pictures of decaying penises on condom packets.
People do what they want, you would be better off paying them money to keep the baby, this is the language they understand.
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TheGreatestLove
Guest
Originally Posted by TheGreatestLove
How Sad that women still murder their own babies!
Yah murder!
When the doctor says a woman is pregant guess what? its because there is a baby inside her!
What a horrid cowardly act- to kill one that cannot defend itself! Kinda like a bully huh?
‘Jesus said He who does unto these children does unto me’
Reflect on that for a bit… …
Such a beautiful gift from God-The Gift of Life-I wonder if those women who have abortions-thought of what it would be like to have been aborted. What a subtle word for such a horrific act.
It is criminal and should be deemed as such!
and reposted by Reginator
disturbing images- Well why hide the horrific act of abortion? The Pain these poor unborn children suffer is horrible. I believe the ones that complain about the images of what happens to an unborn child during abortion - is merely because they are affected by it and brings forth something within them…that knows it is wrong. They believe if these images of truth are gone- Then they can retreat back …to who the hek cares!!!
Well someone cares His Name Is Jesus- Our Lord and Our saviour- I read once a man who had spiritual visions- he said around the throne of Jesus he seen little children angels-until he realized -They were the aborted children of the world!!!
I also believe sincerely in action as well–those who are active pro-Life- remember people can change …If you walk the walk of Jesus…in kindness and humility…love and compassion-yet with truth(images) violence has nothing to do with Jesus if violence is played out by pro lifers’ it is no less a sin…than that of the abortionist!
If young girls are doing it for the reason of no money to keep it- those who are rich do the word of God and help the poor. That is what he asks of the wealthy…
When Jesus was preaching outdoors under the morning sun- Many people gathered around to hear him- Children were trying to get through to Jesus…Many adults scooted them away…to not bother Jesus.
Jesus said to them: “Let The children come unto me”
:harp:
How Sad that women still murder their own babies!
Yah murder!
When the doctor says a woman is pregant guess what? its because there is a baby inside her!
What a horrid cowardly act- to kill one that cannot defend itself! Kinda like a bully huh?
‘Jesus said He who does unto these children does unto me’
Reflect on that for a bit… …
Such a beautiful gift from God-The Gift of Life-I wonder if those women who have abortions-thought of what it would be like to have been aborted. What a subtle word for such a horrific act.
It is criminal and should be deemed as such!
and reposted by Reginator
disturbing images- Well why hide the horrific act of abortion? The Pain these poor unborn children suffer is horrible. I believe the ones that complain about the images of what happens to an unborn child during abortion - is merely because they are affected by it and brings forth something within them…that knows it is wrong. They believe if these images of truth are gone- Then they can retreat back …to who the hek cares!!!
Well someone cares His Name Is Jesus- Our Lord and Our saviour- I read once a man who had spiritual visions- he said around the throne of Jesus he seen little children angels-until he realized -They were the aborted children of the world!!!
I also believe sincerely in action as well–those who are active pro-Life- remember people can change …If you walk the walk of Jesus…in kindness and humility…love and compassion-yet with truth(images) violence has nothing to do with Jesus if violence is played out by pro lifers’ it is no less a sin…than that of the abortionist!
If young girls are doing it for the reason of no money to keep it- those who are rich do the word of God and help the poor. That is what he asks of the wealthy…
When Jesus was preaching outdoors under the morning sun- Many people gathered around to hear him- Children were trying to get through to Jesus…Many adults scooted them away…to not bother Jesus.
Jesus said to them: “Let The children come unto me”
:harp:
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Hokomai
Guest
Here’s another, just two psalms earlier (137):
8 O daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed,
Happy the one who repays you as you have served us!
9 Happy the one who takes and dashes
Your little ones against the rock!
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LittleSoldier
Guest
This is a bit off-topic but I’d like to post it anyway. I just finished reading *The Unaborted Socrates *by Peter Kreeft and was so impressed that I’m going to get the entire Socrates series. Somehow Mr. Kreeft manages to logically annihilate the pro-abortion stance as presented by an M.D. abortion provider, a philosopher, and a psychologist.
I’m not a philosopher and I don’t know if the “Socrates” in the book really portrays the real Socrates in his methods. But I loved the book, it actually has humor in it (which is hard to imagine when even thinking about abortion), and I’m very happy that I read it.
I recommend it to anyone who is interested in the topic of abortion - especially those who wish to debate it.
I guess I should add that it’s not expensive, I believe it comes in the Kindle format, and it’s available at Amazon.
I’m not a philosopher and I don’t know if the “Socrates” in the book really portrays the real Socrates in his methods. But I loved the book, it actually has humor in it (which is hard to imagine when even thinking about abortion), and I’m very happy that I read it.
I recommend it to anyone who is interested in the topic of abortion - especially those who wish to debate it.
I guess I should add that it’s not expensive, I believe it comes in the Kindle format, and it’s available at Amazon.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I’m not sure of your point but this is usually presented as proof or implication that God murders babies. Context is important. Here is the entire psalm:
By the rivers of Babylon
there we sat weeping
when we remembered Zion.
On the poplars in its midst
we hung up our harps.
For there our captors asked us
for the words of a song;
Our tormentors, for joy:
“Sing for us a song of Zion!”
But how could we sing a song of the LORD
in a foreign land?
If I forget you, Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget.
May my tongue stick to my palate
if I do not remember you,
If I do not exalt Jerusalem
beyond all my delights.
Remember, LORD, against Edom
that day at Jerusalem.
They said: “Level it, level it
down to its foundations!”
Desolate Daughter Babylon, you shall be destroyed,
blessed the one who pays you back
what you have done us!
Blessed the one who seizes your children
and smashes them against the rock.
- [Psalm 137] A singer refuses to sing the people’s sacred songs in an alien land despite demands from Babylonian captors (Ps 137:1–4). The singer swears an oath by what is most dear to a musician—hands and tongue—to exalt Jerusalem always (Ps 137:5–6). The Psalm ends with a prayer that the old enemies of Jerusalem, Edom and Babylon, be destroyed (Ps 137:7–9).
- [137:9] Blessed the one who seizes your children and smashes them against the rock: the children represent the future generations, and so must be destroyed if the enemy is truly to be eradicated.
(bolding added by this poster for emphasis)
This is not an example of God murdering babies (I don’t know if that is the point being made); it is the prayer of a captive and the word “children” means the destruction of future generations. Please note that Babylon itself is referred to as “daughter.”
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surritter
Guest
LS … it’s what’s called a “strawman” post. I suspect that he’s using a verse from the Bible to insinuate something that it doesn’t really mean, just so he can (supposedly) tear down a pro-life argument.
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dochawk
Guest
I’m familiar with this program.
The Supreme Council of the KofC has negotiated a steep discount, and can buy these at $25,000. On top of that, it has matching funds, so that if a council or group of them can raise $12.5k, it can place a machine.
If you’re a Knight, ask your District or State deputy about the program. If he doesn’t know, get him to learn.
If you’re not a Knight, talk to them, and join!
hawk
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
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