When *IS* dance allowed at Mass?

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I don’t recall any applause after the dance - and as for entertainment, well a good choir is entertaining as well, whether they’re chanting Latin or singing something contemporary. So is beautiful artwork such as you see in most older churches.

We are a sensory people and the sensory experience is, like it or not, part of worship. And things that appeal to the senses happen to be entertaining as well. 🤷

Just because we are naturally entertained by good musicians or dancers, in Mass or out, doesn’t mean that we don’t appreciate the primary intent of what they do at a Mass - to glorify and worship God - and it doesn’t mean that in appreciating their efforts at Mass we don’t also give glory to the God who gave them their talents.

Like I said, I don’t believe there was any applause, so what was taken away from the worshipfulness?
 
I don’t have a TV so I am not able to watch the WYD event. So I can’t really give an opinion. Of course there’s nothing wrong with experiencing enjoyment and emotion, a little movement during worship. Like you said, we are creatures of the senses, both in and out of Mass.

I am sure Cardinal Arinze views applause within the Mass as wrong in that sense that we are not there to be entertained, like at a concert. At our church it is not done often, and *when *it is done it is at the very end of Mass, right before the final blessing. It is our pastor who always initiates it… he gives a nod to the choir director and the choir for their exceptional gift … and he initiates the applause. I don’t see anything wrong with that.
  • Westy
 
What you saw was a re-enactment of the Coming of the Light, when the gospel was first introduced to Darnley Island (aka Erub) in the Torres Strait. Coming of the Light look place on July 1, 1871. The gospel was brought to the island by the o London Missionary Society. Now, on July 1st of every year the re-enactment is part of the liturgy on all of the islands of the Torres Strait.

Now, you may be wondering why an Anglican tradition was included in a Catholic mass. The parish on Darnley Island, as are all or most of the parishes in the Torres Strait, is part of the the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC). As the TAC is headquartered in Australia and is close to coming into full communion with the Catholic Church, this tradition may have been intentionally included as a way of recognizing the status of the TAC.
 
Isn’t dancing as a part of worshiping God in the Bible?

I’ve seen choreography done in good taste and I see nothing really wrong with it. When it becomes provocative, however, I have to draw a line. I simply say that it’s not part of my culture, but yet I cannot say it’s not a valid service.
First of all, it was never part of the cultic worship of Yahweh, as dictated by God personally and directly to Moses. Dancing was not mentioned at all in the entire directive given by the Lord to Moses. God was very detailed in precisely how he wanted to be worshipped. Any deviation from the norms met with severe punishment, even death, as Aaron’s sons soon discovered.

Just because David danced before that altar, that doesn’t mean that this is what the Hebrews did. Even Second Temple worship didn’t have an element of dancing.

Cardinal Arinze made this observation about “creativity”:
First of all, it is necessary to bear in mind that the public worship of the Church is something that we receive in faith through the Church. It is not something that we invent. Indeed the essentials of the sacraments are established by Christ Himself. And the detailed rites, including words and actions, have been carefully worked out, guarded and handed down by the Church along the centuries. It would, therefore, not be the proper attitude for an individual or a committee to keep thinking and planning each week how to invent a new way of celebrating Mass.
Moreover, a priority at Mass and other liturgical acts is worship of God. The liturgy is not a field for self-expression, free creation and the demonstration of personal tastes. Idiosyncrasies tend to attract attention to the person rather than to the mysteries of Christ being celebrated. They can also upset, puzzle, annoy, mislead or confuse the congregation.
Now, here is what he says about dancing:
Some people want to introduce dance into the sacred liturgy. The Latin Rite liturgy has not had any such practice. We have therefore to ask those who want to bring in the dance to state their case.
If they say that the reason is to make the Mass interesting, the answer is what we have just considered. We come to Mass to worship God, not to see a spectacle. We have the parish hall and the theater for shows
…Is it true that in many parts of Africa and Asia there may be a cultural habit of graceful body movement which, with due study and approval of the local Church, may go down well within a liturgical celebration. The Ethiopian rite has known graceful rhythmical movements and the procession for the Gospel. The Roman Rite Mass approved for the Democratic Republic of the Congo has similar entry movements.
But this is very different from what the ordinary person in Europe or North America thinks of when the concept of dance is evoked. Can we blame people who associate dance with Saturday evening, ballroom, theater or simply, innocent enjoyment? The liturgical books approved by the bishops and the Holy See for Europe and North America understandably do not authorize the importation of dance into church, let alone the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice.
Notice that he didn’t include Oceania in those areas that supposedly have “dance” as part of their worship. While didn’t include Australia in the mix for the other side of the picture, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they have a free hand to do as they wish. Does such an indult or recogntio exist from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments exist to permit what we witnessed at the opening Mass?

Remember, too, that the Australian bishops were taken to the woodshed by Pope John Paul II for their mishandling of the Sacrament of Penance when they were granting wholesale general absolutions.

The bottom line is that you can only take the inculturation issue only so far.
 
What you saw was a re-enactment of the Coming of the Light, when the gospel was first introduced to Darnley Island (aka Erub) in the Torres Strait. Coming of the Light look place on July 1, 1871. The gospel was brought to the island by the o London Missionary Society. Now, on July 1st of every year the re-enactment is part of the liturgy on all of the islands of the Torres Strait.

Now, you may be wondering why an Anglican tradition was included in a Catholic mass. The parish on Darnley Island, as are all or most of the parishes in the Torres Strait, is part of the the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC). As the TAC is headquartered in Australia and is close to coming into full communion with the Catholic Church, this tradition may have been intentionally included as a way of recognizing the status of the TAC.
Thank you for the explanation. However, while this is a noble and lovely act, it should not have been inserted into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. There is a time and a place for such things. Perhaps it could have been done during the Prayer Vigil with the Holy Father or at another suitable venue, but, not the Mass.

As you might expect, some of us were taken aback by what we saw, considering that the Church takes liturgical norms very seriously. As Cardinal Arinze, the Holy See’s point man on liturgy notes:
It is to be remembered that the Eucharistic sacrifice, and indeed the sacred liturgy as a whole, are not something that we make or invent, or put together on our own. They are gifts that we receive, keep, treasure, celebrate and for which we are grateful.
It must be lamented — says Pope John Paul II — that, especially in the years following the post-conciliar liturgical reforms, as a result of a misguided sense of creativity and adaptation there have been a number of abuses which have been a source of suffering for many.8
What transpired in Australia may have been sincere, but, it was also a misguided approach. As the Cardinal further observes:
Liturgical abuses can confuse the congregation and occasion uncertainty, perplexity, scandal, opposition and factionalism. In more severe cases, they can obscure the Catholic faith and prevent the people from sharing fully in the celebration of the mysteries of Christ. To ignore liturgical norms can also reinforce a false understanding of freedom. In ecumenical efforts it introduces problems and sometimes a wrong presentation of the Catholic faith.17
To ignore liturgical norms can in a subtle way introduce secularization and gradual banalization into the liturgy. In this short-sighted vision, a church building may no longer be seen as a sacred place. Do the people then come to church for Mass as to a “meeting” like in a stadium or congress hall? Do they talk in church as if it were not appreciated as a sacred place separated from secular daily events? Does this tendency regard the norms on the use of liturgical vestments as triumphalism? Does it lead to a type of secular leveling down which prefers to say cup instead of chalice, plate instead of paten, dress instead of vestment, and president instead of priest celebrant?
To ignore liturgical norms can gradually introduce such erosions.
This is not to say that the entire Mass was badly celebrated. There were definitely pluses, such as Cardinal Pell’s incredible homily and the Benedictine arrangment of the altar. The music was lukewarm, at best, and the big sour note was Dana’s concert-like performance of the first song used for Communion.

Nonetheless the bottom line remains that while the intentions were good, the manner in which they were carried out wasn’t the best. If they really insisted on having such a ceremony, then it could have been done just before the post-Communion prayer.

Now, the Aborigines are greeting teh Holy Father with a dance. That’s fine becuase it’s not done under the auspices of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It’s not even a liturgical function. But, having something like that in the Mass is an entirely different matter altogether.
 
The danced was performed by Aboriginals in traditional Aboriginal dress. It was a dance honoring the Holy Event and Welcoming the people of the world and his Holiness to Sydney, Australia. While it has no Christian background to it at all, it was highly appropriate that the progonal inhabitants of this land be involved in the ceremony. At the moment there is a great movement facilitating a reconciliation between our culture (Catholic Christian ) and theirs. Trying to overcome the atrocities commited against the Aboriginal people in the past.

I believe they were part of an Aboriginal-Catholic delegation from Arnhem Land which is in Central Australia.

Hope this helps. God Bless. It is awesome here!!! WYD rules!!!
 
…12. The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ speaks all languages. It esteems and embraces all cultures. It supports them in everything human and, when necessary, it purifies them. Always and everywhere the Gospel uplifts and enriches cultures with the revealed message of a loving and merciful God.
Code:
          That Gospel now invites you to become, through and through, Aboriginal  Christians. It meets your deepest desires. You do not have to be people divided  into two parts, as though an Aboriginal had to borrow the faith and life of  Christianity, like a hat or a pair of shoes, from someone else who owns them.  Jesus calls you to accept his words and his values into your own culture. To  develop in this way will make you more than ever truly Aboriginal. 
         The old ways can draw new life and strength from the Gospel. The message of  Jesus Christ can lift up your lives to new heights, reinforce all your positive  values and add many others, which only the Gospel in its originality proposes.  Take this Gospel into your own language and way of speaking; let its spirit  penetrate your communities and determine your behaviour towards each other, let  it bring new strength to your stories and your ceremonies. Let the Gospel come  into your hearts and renew your personal lives. The Church invites you to  express the living word of Jesus in ways that speak to your Aboriginal minds and  hearts. All over the world people worship God and read his word in their own  language, and colour the great signs and symbols of religion with touches of  their own traditions. Why should you be different from them in this regard, why  should you not be allowed the happiness of being with God and each other in  Aboriginal fashion?
  1. Code:
    As you listen to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, seek out the best things  of your traditional ways. If you do, you will come to realize more and more your  great human and Christian dignity...
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1986/november/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19861129_aborigeni-alice-springs-australia_en.html
 
The danced was performed by Aboriginals in traditional Aboriginal dress. It was a dance honoring the Holy Event and Welcoming the people of the world and his Holiness to Sydney, Australia. While it has no Christian background to it at all, it was highly appropriate that the progonal inhabitants of this land be involved in the ceremony. At the moment there is a great movement facilitating a reconciliation between our culture (Catholic Christian ) and theirs. Trying to overcome the atrocities commited against the Aboriginal people in the past.

I believe they were part of an Aboriginal-Catholic delegation from Arnhem Land which is in Central Australia.

Hope this helps. God Bless. It is awesome here!!! WYD rules!!!
Get back to watching the Pope. His ship just docked and he’s getting into the Popemobile even as I type. 😃

Now, don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t panning the greeting that they gave the Holy Father. That was perfectly fine. Plus, it wasn’t done within the confines of the Mass. What I am addressing is what was done during the opening WYD Mass.

Now, Cobbfmly, thank you for the post, but it still doesn’t justify what went on during the Mass. I don’t know if you are Anglican or Catholic; however, the Latin Rite (I believe this also applies to the Eastern Churches as well) doesn’t have a tradition for dance in the liturgy. As well-meaning as this gesture was, it wasn’t appropriate for the Mass, moreso given your explanation. When you start introducing strange things into the Mass, this is going to breed confusion of the worst kind because folks will think that this completely allowable and they’ll try to recreate the whole scene when they get back home.

Believe me, I’ve seen this happen and I’ve had to put a stop to it in my area. Now, we have Matachines for the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. However, their dance stops at the Church door. They are not a part of the Mass even though the dance is a centuries-old Aztec tradition honoring the Blessed Mother.

I’m not anti-multicultural; however, there is a time and a place for these things. The Mass isn’t the venue, though.
 
…These many cultures influence Church life, not only in the words, rites and songs of the liturgy and in prayers and devotional practices, but also in preaching, in expressing theological concepts and in the organisation and leadership of communities…

…The Church’s expression of Her life of faith in symbols and rites is linked to the culture of the person who receives the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Traditional stories and symbols, music and dance, rites and celebrations, all of which are expressions of human memory and imagination, are deeply part of the cultures of Oceania. Through a proper application of inculturation, the Church seeks to incorporate elements of a particular culture into Her liturgy, devotional practices, catechesis and sacred art. In this way, She expresses faith in God and communion among the faithful…

…In the area of the inculturation of liturgy, many local Churches in Oceania are working diligently at discerning how traditional rituals, e.g., cleansing, offering, reconciliation, etc., may be introduced or accommodated to the liturgy, according to the norms laid down by the Church. These liturgical reforms might offer assistance in expressing and signifying more appropriately the new life in Christ offered to the Christian community and its members, and celebrated through the sacraments…

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_26091997_oce-lineam_en.html
 
I’m not anti-multicultural; however, there is a time and a place for these things. The Mass isn’t the venue, though.
Not anti-multicultural? Not half. I’m getting the loud and clear message from you that if it’s not what Europeans would recognise as a Mass then it ought to be cut out. Spare me.
 
My understanding is that if you have to explain that something is worship, then it shouldn’t be done.
Great quote in the context of this thread, but how would you apply the same quote when a non-Catholic starts quizzing you about the Mass itself?

😉
 
Great quote in the context of this thread, but how would you apply the same quote when a non-Catholic starts quizzing you about the Mass itself?

😉
Or, as happens often enough, a Catholic starts quizzing likewise?
 
Not anti-multicultural? Not half. I’m getting the loud and clear message from you that if it’s not what Europeans would recognise as a Mass then it ought to be cut out. Spare me.
No. It is what the Church has already noted. The problem is that there are those who will try to insert something into the Mass that simply does not belong there. Free forms of creativity have no place in the Mass.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not some laboratory for experiementation. Even when multiculturalsim comes into play, it pertains to a specific group, not to the Universal Church. It is much like the Eucharistic Prayers used for Children. Children must comprise a majority of the faithful in order for these particular prayers to be used. If the Mass were comprised by a majority of the native tribes, then, that’s another story altogether. However, this Mass was international and universal in nature, and not geared towards one particular group.

And, as far as Catholics questioning what is happening at the Mass is concerned, that certainily holds true if something completely foreign and inappropriate is happening.
 
All of this explains to me why EWTN did not show any of the aboriginal dancers on camera. EWTN viewers were treated to a nice view of the floor of the sanctuary for those few minutes.

It wouldn’t have been worth the dust-up it would have caused.
 
All of this explains to me why EWTN did not show any of the aboriginal dancers on camera. EWTN viewers were treated to a nice view of the floor of the sanctuary for those few minutes.

It wouldn’t have been worth the dust-up it would have caused.
Actually when the pope’s boat docked at Sydney and the pope departed the boat, he was treated to a dance by the aboriginal dancers and EWTN showed it. Now I can’t sat if there was dancing at the mass.

If there was dancing at the mass however, it probably would have been ok because the aborigines would have seen it as worship without it having to be explained to them.
 
Actually when the pope’s boat docked at Sydney and the pope departed the boat, he was treated to a dance by the aboriginal dancers and EWTN showed it. Now I can’t sat if there was dancing at the mass.

If there was dancing at the mass however, it probably would have been ok because the aborigines would have seen it as worship without it having to be explained to them.
Thanks for the info, Nate. I didn’t get to see the coverage of the Pope’s arrival in Sydney yet, but I’m sure that EWTN would not have any difficulty showing people dancing outside of mass.🙂

Like I posted in another thread, I had just been wondering why they didn’t show the Gospel procession on camera. Like you I live in the States, and there’s a learning curve going on.🙂
 
Thanks for the info, Nate. I didn’t get to see the coverage of the Pope’s arrival in Sydney yet, but I’m sure that EWTN would not have any difficulty showing people dancing outside of mass.🙂

Like I posted in another thread, I had just been wondering why they didn’t show the Gospel procession on camera. Like you I live in the States, and there’s a learning curve going on.🙂
But, what transpired this morning was not the Mass. The Holy Father was welcomed by the aborigines through dance. The Gospel was brought up with a dance procession, but, it wasn’t done during the Mass. That is where the big difference lies.
 
But, what transpired this morning was not the Mass. The Holy Father was welcomed by the aborigines through dance. The Gospel was brought up with a dance procession, but, it wasn’t done during the Mass. That is where the big difference lies.
I understand that the Pope’s arrival in Sydney was not a Mass.

But the Mass at the opening of WYD was as any other Mass, with two parts- the liturgy of the Word, and the liturgy of the Eucharist. So how is the Gospel procession not part of the Mass?
 
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