When *IS* dance allowed at Mass?

[Cobbfmly]

Like I posted in another thread, I had just been wondering why they didn’t show the Gospel procession on camera. Like you I live in the States, and there’s a learning curve going on.

EWTN did show the Gospel procession during the opening mass on camera. They even explained that it was a re-enactment of the Gospel arriving in the Torres Stait.

 

[Mrs_Mac]

EWTN did show the Gospel procession during the opening mass on camera. They even explained that it was a re-enactment of the Gospel arriving in the Torres Stait.

They did explain the arrival of the Gospel in the Torres Strait, and the re-enactment of it, and they explained what was happening, but they did not show the procession itself.

 

[Cobbfmly]

They did explain the arrival of the Gospel in the Torres Strait, and the re-enactment of it, and they explained what was happening, but they did not show the procession itself.

I was watching EWTN. There were caucasian boys coming up the center isle with the Gospel in a “boat” that looked like it was made out cardboard, while the indigenous people danced in front of the sanctuary in traditional clothing with weapons (bows, etc). The boys exited the “boat” (EWTN even showed the “boat” sitting empty on the ground) and took the Gospel to a deacon, who appeared to be indigenous. The deacon read the Gospel in what sounded like a indigenous language.

 

[LilyM]

No. It is what the Church has already noted. The problem is that there are those who will try to insert something into the Mass that simply does not belong there. Free forms of creativity have no place in the Mass.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not some laboratory for experiementation. Even when multiculturalsim comes into play, it pertains to a specific group, not to the Universal Church. It is much like the Eucharistic Prayers used for Children. Children must comprise a majority of the faithful in order for these particular prayers to be used. If the Mass were comprised by a majority of the native tribes, then, that’s another story altogether. However, this Mass was international and universal in nature, and not geared towards one particular group.

And, as far as Catholics questioning what is happening at the Mass is concerned, that certainily holds true if something completely foreign and inappropriate is happening.

Interesting that you should bring up the use of special Eucharistic prayers where the majority of participants at a Mass are children.

I still maintain that the dance was perfectly permissible because the majority of participants WERE Australian and that indigenous dance is part of our collective Australian culture, and not just Aboriginal culture.

But to that I add that the majority of participants WERE young people as well, and dance - of all forms - is absolutely an integral part of youth culture, so doubly a reason that it can rightly be included in a Mass the majority of whose attendees are young people, as long as it isn’t disrespectful or irreverent in any way which the dance wasn’t.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

And I suppose you think Latin was an organic development from the original Greek? Of course not - it was entirely a novelty and a concession to the culture of the time where Latin became the vernacular.

And how, pray tell, does one organically develop from NOT elevating the Host to elevating the Host? The two (action v non-action) are diametrically opposed to each other, one cannot be considered an organic development of the other.

It seems that you think that Latin was used at the Last Supper and nothing has changed or been ‘innovated’ or introduced into the Mass since. It seems that you are the one who does not understand how things work.

Latin wouldn’t have been bizarre to the people who initially used it because that was their language. Elevating the host wouldn’t need explanation. Other elements would have come from pre-existing custom, such as courtly behavior or how the locals used to worship before they were Christian. So, if a people have always shown adoration and reverence by dancing, then it might naturally be part of their worship. Cardinal Arinze has said that that is not really the case. At any rate, there is no reason why people in the US should dance at Mass.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

What you saw was a re-enactment of the Coming of the Light, when the gospel was first introduced to Darnley Island (aka Erub) in the Torres Strait. Coming of the Light look place on July 1, 1871. The gospel was brought to the island by the o London Missionary Society. Now, on July 1st of every year the re-enactment is part of the liturgy on all of the islands of the Torres Strait.

Now, you may be wondering why an Anglican tradition was included in a Catholic mass. The parish on Darnley Island, as are all or most of the parishes in the Torres Strait, is part of the the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC). As the TAC is headquartered in Australia and is close to coming into full communion with the Catholic Church, this tradition may have been intentionally included as a way of recognizing the status of the TAC.

I have the vague idea that Aboriginal dance is narrative - it tells a story (to those who know how to interpret it.) At any rate, like I said, it looked pretty good… it was in no way like the sort of dancing you see at Call To Action meetings.

 

[LilyM]

Latin wouldn’t have been bizarre to the people who initially used it because that was their language. Elevating the host wouldn’t need explanation. Other elements would have come from pre-existing custom, such as courtly behavior or how the locals used to worship before they were Christian. So, if a people have always shown adoration and reverence by dancing, then it might naturally be part of their worship. Cardinal Arinze has said that that is not really the case. At any rate, there is no reason why people in the US should dance at Mass.

Not ordinarily, no. I’d argue, though, that Native Americans are free to dance in worship however and wherever they wish, including at Mass, in their country (and ALL of the US is their country). Same, in fact more so, for indigenous Australians in this land, given that, in my impression, we’ve shown less respect for indigenous land ownership compared to the US .

And I’d say, perhaps not as weighty an argument but something which needs to be considered nonetheless, that dance is a significant part of youth culture, including youth worship practices, and can be permitted in youth Masses for that reason - not at whim, though.

 

[LilyM]

Latin wouldn’t have been bizarre to the people who initially used it because that was their language. Elevating the host wouldn’t need explanation. Other elements would have come from pre-existing custom, such as courtly behavior or how the locals used to worship before they were Christian. So, if a people have always shown adoration and reverence by dancing, then it might naturally be part of their worship. Cardinal Arinze has said that that is not really the case. At any rate, there is no reason why people in the US should dance at Mass.

So the criterion is whether something looks or sounds weird? I’m sure your average African or Asian Catholic has always found Latin weird regardless of its history in Europe.

[Edited]

 

[Mrs_Mac]

I was watching EWTN. There were caucasian boys coming up the center isle with the Gospel in a “boat” that looked like it was made out cardboard, while the indigenous people danced in front of the sanctuary in traditional clothing with weapons (bows, etc). The boys exited the “boat” (EWTN even showed the “boat” sitting empty on the ground) and took the Gospel to a deacon, who appeared to be indigenous. The deacon read the Gospel in what sounded like a indigenous language.

Wow! They didn’t show any of that on my EWTN channel in New York. That was during the opening Mass? I’m being real honest here, I’m not kidding, I watched the opening Mass and all we saw was the back of the Cardinal’s robes and the floor of the Sanctuary during the Gospel procession. Interesting!

 

[Cobbfmly]

Wow! They didn’t show any of that on my EWTN channel in New York. That was during the opening Mass? I’m being real honest here, I’m not kidding, I watched the opening Mass and all we saw was the back of the Cardinal’s robes and the floor of the Sanctuary during the Gospel procession. Interesting!

I was watching EWTN on DishNetwork.

 

[LilyM]

Wow! They didn’t show any of that on my EWTN channel in New York. That was during the opening Mass? I’m being real honest here, I’m not kidding, I watched the opening Mass and all we saw was the back of the Cardinal’s robes and the floor of the Sanctuary during the Gospel procession. Interesting!

That bit was NOT during the Opening Mass, it was at another ceremony. What DID happen durign the Opening Mass was simply a dance by indigenous young people in place of the Gospel greeting, and we’re debating its legitimacy within the context.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Are you genuinely unaware that the host and chalice weren’t always elevated, prayers weren’t always said in Latin, candles weren’t always used?

At some point in history each and every one of these things WERE strange even to Catholics. They were in fact, exactly as you phrase it, novelties that creative geniuses thought would improve the Mass - and you know what, those kooky geniuses were absolutely right! They DID improve the Mass!

I’m not saying that US-style liturgical dance would improve it, it’s been tried for 30-some years and clearly doesn’t. But introduction of the sort of element we saw at WYD could be the exception - IMHO it hasn’t been tried often enough to judge.

But - the things you refer to, though new in their respective times, have little meaning outside their liturgical use - & they fit the liturgy well, as already said. Whereas:​

1. So-called “liturgical dance” is not only ill-suited to the ethos of the Liturgy; it is too often promiscuous, & is not in the least inextricable from the Liturgy - it could perfectly well occur in a dance-hall or a dance-contest; & the Mass is no more fitted for those, than it is fitted to be a setting for American Idol. The Mass of the Roman Rite is of a grave & serious character which is very different from the sort of culture found in Africa, so to import something African into the RM is to debase & bastardise it - not to ennoble it. Which is why the secular type of celebration, & practices such as clapping, have absolutely no place whatever at the Mass. These are abuses which very much need to be uprooted.
2. That dancing may be a token of joy, is not enough to make it a fitting part of the Liturgy - drinking whisky gives many people considerable joy, but that is no reason to offer the Liturgy in a bar or a pub, or to incorporate a “Happy Hour” in the Mass. Popular as that might be. The longer the Mass is treated as something unholy, something to be tinkered with, the less easy it will be to recover a sense of how these holy things should be treated, & the more arbitrary & pointless such means as remain of expressing the importance of the holiness of the Liturgy will come to be reckoned.

Besides, candles are appropriate to the Liturgy. They are imported from the custom of preceding Roman magistrates with candles as a sign of respect - & Christ is the Judge of all the earth, so it is very right that He Who is far greater than any earthly magistrate should be honoured with them.

How can that be said of dancing in the Roman or any other Liturgy? There is no such organic relation here - the importation is from a wholly alien culture.

 

[LilyM]

But - the things you refer to, though new in their respective times, have little meaning outside their liturgical use - & they fit the liturgy well, as already said. Whereas:​

1. So-called “liturgical dance” is not only ill-suited to the ethos of the Liturgy; it is too often promiscuous, & is not in the least inextricable from the Liturgy - it could perfectly well occur in a dance-hall or a dance-contest; & the Mass is no more fitted for those, than it is fitted to be a setting for American Idol. The Mass of the Roman Rite is of a grave & serious character which is very different from the sort of culture found in Africa, so to import something African into the RM is to debase & bastardise it - not to ennoble it. Which is why the secular type of celebration, & practices such as clapping, have absolutely no place whatever at the Mass. These are abuses which very much need to be uprooted.
2. That dancing may be a token of joy, is not enough to make it a fitting part of the Liturgy - drinking whisky gives many people considerable joy, but that is no reason to offer the Liturgy in a bar or a pub, or to incorporate a “Happy Hour” in the Mass. Popular as that might be. The longer the Mass is treated as something unholy, something to be tinkered with, the less easy it will be to recover a sense of how these holy things should be treated, & the more arbitrary & pointless such means as remain of expressing the importance of the holiness of the Liturgy will come to be reckoned.

I’m not talking about dance merely as an expression of joy, or which could occur in any dance-hall - or of so called ‘liturgical dance’ that is about performance or anything other than worship.

I’m talking rather of dance that is specifically linked to worship - as in the case of indigenous dance as used at WYD, which most certainly isn’t promiscuous and doesn’t fit in with any of your objections.

As for youth culture - do you really give our devout young people so little credit as to presume that all their dance is automatically about either promiscuity or performance and thus inappropriate for Mass? I’d criticise most western liturgical dance rather on grounds that it is usually poorly executed rather than make sweeping generalisations about its motivation or origins.

And yes, Mass has an inherent solemnity, but there ARE occasions, such as the exchange of peace (even in its TLM form) and many of even the most traditional hymns, where that solemnity is relaxed significantly.

 

[Mrs_Mac]

That bit was NOT during the Opening Mass, it was at another ceremony. What DID happen durign the Opening Mass was simply a dance by indigenous young people in place of the Gospel greeting, and we’re debating its legitimacy within the context.

I’m not debating anything. I am very happy that the Holy Father has seen fit to hold World Youth Day in Australia and I hope that you will be truly blessed by his presence in your country, as we were blessed in the USA this past April.

This is just different for me, as I hope you can understand.

 

[Cobbfmly]

That bit was NOT during the Opening Mass, it was at another ceremony. What DID happen durign the Opening Mass was simply a dance by indigenous young people in place of the Gospel greeting, and we’re debating its legitimacy within the context.

It WAS during the Gospel procession:

…During the Gospel Procession, Torres Strait Aborigines danced in front of the Sanctuary as two young people from the Torres Straight brought the Gospel up to them. Together with the young Aborigines, they then presented the Gospel to a deacon in a red dalmatic…

catholicherald.co.uk/wyd08/index.shtml

…The Gospel will be carried by young pilgrims from the Torres Strait Islands and accompanied by a Gospel Acclamation reflecting the power of the Spirit in their community…

wyd2008.org/index.php/en/content/download/151165/1514719/file/Opening%20mass.pdf

I was incorrect about the language the Gospel was said in:

…Gospel: Luke 8:4-18
Dal Vangelo secondo Luca. (Italian)…

wyd2008.org/index.php/en/content/download/151165/1514719/file/Opening%20mass.pdf

 

[BSHoop96]

I’m not saying that US-style liturgical dance would improve it, it’s been tried for 30-some years and clearly doesn’t. **But introduction of the sort of element we saw at WYD could be the exception - IMHO it hasn’t been tried often enough to judge./**QUOTE]

It is not cultural to the US. It **is **to Aborigines. It doesn’t need to be introduced here at all…ever…why would we do that?

 

[BSHoop96]

Interesting that you should bring up the use of special Eucharistic prayers where the majority of participants at a Mass are children.

I still maintain that the dance was perfectly permissible because the majority of participants WERE Australian and that indigenous dance is part of our collective Australian culture, and not just Aboriginal culture.

But to that I add that the majority of participants WERE young people as well, and dance - of all forms - is absolutely an integral part of youth culture, so doubly a reason that it can rightly be included in a Mass the majority of whose attendees are young people, as long as it isn’t disrespectful or irreverent in any way which the dance wasn’t.

You’re really reaching here. *Youth culture * dancing is not the same thing as dance that is cultural (for worship) in some countries.

 

[nate12387]

You’re really reaching here. *Youth culture * dancing is not the same thing as dance that is cultural (for worship) in some countries.

In the United States, at least, Dance is used for Joy and to have fun and not for worship. The youth here don’t see it as worship. I am 20 years old, that is the way I see it as a youth and I would guess that it is also the way the majority of youth see dance here in the United States.

 

[Cobbfmly]

It WAS during the Gospel procession:

…During the Gospel Procession, Torres Strait Aborigines danced in front of the Sanctuary as two young people from the Torres Straight brought the Gospel up to them. Together with the young Aborigines, they then presented the Gospel to a deacon in a red dalmatic…

catholicherald.co.uk/wyd08/index.shtml

…The Gospel will be carried by young pilgrims from the Torres Strait Islands and accompanied by a Gospel Acclamation reflecting the power of the Spirit in their community…

wyd2008.org/index.php/en/content/download/151165/1514719/file/Opening%20mass.pdf

I was incorrect about the language the Gospel was said in:

…Gospel: Luke 8:4-18
Dal Vangelo secondo Luca. (Italian)…

wyd2008.org/index.php/en/content/download/151165/1514719/file/Opening%20mass.pdf

video.wyd2008.org/?MediaId=15…c-49efb5fbf292

The Gospel procession begins at 34:21

 

[BSHoop96]

In the United States, at least, Dance is used for Joy and to have fun and not for worship. The youth here don’t see it as worship. I am 20 years old, that is the way I see it as a youth and I would guess that it is also the way the majority of youth see dance here in the United States.

Exactly!