When *IS* dance allowed at Mass?

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LilyM said:
So the criterion is whether something looks or sounds weird? I’m sure your average African or Asian Catholic has always found Latin weird regardless of its history in Europe.

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Now, I repeat, no one is questioning the intent of the dance during the Mass. What I am questoning is why it had to be isnerted within the Mass. The aboriginal presence at the Stations of the Cross was impressive’ however, this was not the Mass. There is only so far that you can take the inculturation argument.
 
benedictgal said:
First of all, Latin is the language of the Church. It has been part and parcel of the Church for the last 2,000+ years.
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2000+ years? :confused:

Can you document when Latin actually became used in the Mass, or when Church documents and writings actually were compiled in Latin?

Thanks. 🙂
 
BSHoop96 said:
Exactly!
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Now I would also say that my last comment would only apply here in the United State and some European Countries. I wouldn’t apply to countries, like in Africa, who see dance as worship, not as joy.
 
nate12387 said:
Now I would also say that my last comment would only apply here in the United State and some European Countries. I wouldn’t apply to countries, like in Africa, who see dance as worship, not as joy.
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I repeat…Exactly!

Incidentally, you notice their version of dance is not even dance as we in the United States would normally think of it.
 
LilyM said:
So the criterion is whether something looks or sounds weird?** I’m sure your average African or** Asian Catholic has always found Latin weird**** regardless of its history in Europe.

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I find this statement to be repulsive, paternalistic and highly insulting. How dare you. How dare you claim to know what we feel? You are not as far as I know Asian. I am. Pinoy. Filipino. Visayan and Cebuano. Full blooded. 100%

As was my father mother, grandparents, great grandparents great great great great grandparents as far back as you care to go. My family has been Catholic since the Spanish converted the Islands and has included numerous Priests, Sisters, Brothers, and an auxiliary Bishop. These days, we have six priests three deacons and if memory serves correctly 15 Sisters in various orders scattered around the globe.

None of us has ever considered the use of Latin weird as you say.

I somehow doubt that Cardinal Arinze does either although I can’t speak for him. Maybe you can though with that great ability to read others minds and hearts that liberals and progressives seem to have so often. Particularly when speaking of us of color, you know the downtrodden who can’t speak for ourselves. If you want to say that your ethnic group finds Latin weird and you feel qualified to speak for them, then go for it.

But please have enough respect for us to let us speak for ourselves.

To put it bluntly, you cannot speak for us and you are dead wrong on this one. Dead wrong
 
My sincerest apologies, palmas. I have absolutely no wish either to be or appear insulting or paternalistic.

If I may suggest a rephrasing - the FIRST African and Asian Catholics who heard Latin would, it can safely be said and with no insult to anyone involved, have been totally unused to it. Latin would NOT have been natural or easy for them in the slightest, unlike Europeans whose languages by and large derived from it, and unlike yourself who has centuries of Catholic integration into Filipino culture to draw on.

In exactly the same way as the first Europeans would have had great difficulties with Tagalog and the other Filipino languages in their turn. It’s neither insulting nor paternalistic to say that each culture has great difficulties, at least initially, with those that are very different to them.

I’m surprised at your use of the word ‘never’, as if the first European missionaries arrived on Filipino soil to find vast Latin-speaking communities just waiting for them.

May I also suggest that, if memory serves, the Philipines is a vast majority Catholic country, has been so for centuries, and thus almost if not actually unique in the Asian region. You can speak, to be sure, for modern-day Filipinos and even those of previous centuries, but not necessarily for those of other Asian countries, whose culture in many important ways differs from that of the Philippines.
 
BSHoop96 said:
I repeat…Exactly!

Incidentally, you notice their version of dance is not even dance as we in the United States would normally think of it.
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Yeah thats true. Their version of dance is different the we would normally think of it.
 
Oddly enough, there was no “dance” performed during the Mass at St. Mary’s Cathedral. If, as some proponents would suggest, the aborginals should have had their dance, why was that not employed for this Mass?

The answer is that, as previous posters have indicated, it is not a part of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Furthermore, to say that “youth” are a culture is to not understand how the Church defines culture. Culture, for the Church, centers around indigenous peoples in missionary territories. That doesn’t apply to our youth, unless, they come from these missionary lands.
 
benedictgal said:
Oddly enough, there was no “dance” performed during the Mass at St. Mary’s Cathedral. If, as some proponents would suggest, the aborginals should have had their dance, why was that not employed for this Mass?

The answer is that, as previous posters have indicated, it is not a part of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Furthermore, to say that “youth” are a culture is to not understand how the Church defines culture. Culture, for the Church, centers around indigenous peoples in missionary territories. That doesn’t apply to our youth, unless, they come from these missionary lands.
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There is a distinct difference between the two Masses. The opening Mass was representative of the entire country of Australia. This includes areas that were missionary lands and are still predominately populated by indigenous people (i.e. Torres Straits). The Mass of St. Mary’s Cathedral was representative of the Archdiocese (or diocese?) of Sydney, which is not a missionary land and is not predominately populated by indigenous people.
 
Cobbfmly said:
There is a distinct difference between the two Masses. The opening Mass was representative of the entire country of Australia. This includes areas that were missionary lands and are still predominately populated by indigenous people (i.e. Torres Straits). The Mass of St. Mary’s Cathedral was representative of the Archdiocese (or diocese?) of Sydney, which is not a missionary land and is not predominately populated by indigenous people.
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But, I would submit to you that the Opening WYD Mass was an international event and not limited to the Australians. The Mass was not geared towards the Aussies. It was universal in nature. It was not speaking to a particular culture or peoples; it was for the entire Church because, in essence, the whole Church was gathered in the persons of the young people gathered from virtually every diocese in the world.

Again, the problem (and, it’s a big one) centers around introducing something into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that has no place within the liturgy.
 
benedictgal said:
But, I would submit to you that the Opening WYD Mass was an international event and not limited to the Australians. The Mass was not geared towards the Aussies. It was universal in nature. It was not speaking to a particular culture or peoples; it was for the entire Church because, in essence, the whole Church was gathered in the persons of the young people gathered from virtually every diocese in the world.

Again, the problem (and, it’s a big one) centers around introducing something into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that has no place within the liturgy.
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The vast majority of people there were Australian though - of course it was an Australian mass, with some concession in use of international language to the non-Australians who were watching.

If it were truly an ‘international event’, as opposed to an Australian event watched internationally and attended by some people from other countries, it would probably be held at the United Nations, and certainly the tv broadcasts would be dubbed over into local languages, or portions of the Mass itself said in different languages, or something.
 
LilyM said:
The vast majority of people there were Australian though - of course it was an Australian mass, with some concession in use of international language to the non-Australians who were watching.

If it were truly an ‘international event’, as opposed to an Australian event watched internationally and attended by some people from other countries,** it would probably be held at the United Nations**, and certainly the tv broadcasts would be dubbed over into local languages, or portions of the Mass itself said in different languages, or something.
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Of course it was an international event. Australia was the host country. Just as the Olympics are being held in China but they are not “Chinese” Olympics.

In any case, I don’t think they would have it at the United Nations. :eek: Too political! Plus it would always be in the U.S.
 
There must be a ‘huge amoutnt’ of emails being recieved over the ‘dance’ during the Mass the other day. I noticed after the end of the closing Mass for WYD, the EWTN fathers and brothers - the first thing they spoke about was just that - the dance in worship. Kind of like many have said on here, what we consider in the USA as dance is part of worship in other areas of the world.

Also, if I remember correctly, they said one of the dancers was a priest, three were seminarians, and the others were laity. Interesting God bless us all! He said to enter into his courts with praise and thanksgiving - in the culture shown - I guess that is part of what they were/are doing.
 
It amazes me, how many people are so intent on critiquing every little aspect of WYD, that the presence of the Holy Father amongst the youth seems to be totally lost.

:o
 
HOPEFUL_IN_UK said:
I was just watching a video of the opening Mass for WYD in Sydney. The “Alleluia” was done in a dance. I don’t know if it was the “alleluia” but it was done while the Gospel was processed up to the lectern. It was a group of Aboriginal men in traditional dress (grass skirts, paint, and spears) dancing in a circle to some sort of chant. Now, I have to say: it looked pretty good. It didn’t look like some California ninnie traipsing about with scarves to insipid music. They looked serious and they looked like they knew what they were doing. I guess the problem is that I don’t know what they were doing. Did the dance mean something? Is it derived from some traditional dance that honors God or something?

Anyway, I am under the impression that the Catholic Church does allow for liturgical dance in places where worship has always been expressed through dance. Would that be the case here?
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I don’t believe in dancing at Mass, period. :mad:
 
KingAlfred said:
I don’t believe in dancing at Mass, period. :mad:
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And the reason why you don’t is because you come from a European or American background that looks at dance as being something fun, not worship. The people on Africa see dance as worship.
 
nate12387 said:
I would have to agree.
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Amen! King David danced - stripped half naked no less, in front of the very Ark of the Lord’s Presence no less. I imagine it would’ve looked not dissimilar to what happened at the Opening or Closing Masses. The Almighty had no reported problems, and took no scandal, with David expressing his joy by dancing in this manner in His presence, although David’s wife certainly did.
 
LilyM said:
Amen! King David danced - stripped half naked no less, in front of the very Ark of the Lord’s Presence no less. I imagine it would’ve looked not dissimilar to what happened at the Opening or Closing Masses. The Almighty had no reported problems, and took no scandal, with David expressing his joy by dancing in this manner in His presence, although David’s wife certainly did.
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Come now…that’s a little silly. What could have been culturally accepted in a certain time and place doesn’t mean it’s the same now.

I should clarify that I actually thought the dance was rather interesting and entertaining (which is probably not a good thing, not what they were going for). I don’t have a big problem with it though as it was cultural for them. My biggest hesitation is that sometimes people will see something like that and run with it as “hey, let’s have little Sam and Susie do something like that here in small town, america. After all, I just saw it at a Mass with the Pope.”
 
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