When *IS* dance allowed at Mass?

[LilyM]

Come now…that’s a little silly. What could have been culturally accepted in a certain time and place doesn’t mean it’s the same now.

I should clarify that I actually thought the dance was rather interesting and entertaining (which is probably not a good thing, not what they were going for). I don’t have a big problem with it though as it was cultural for them. My biggest hesitation is that sometimes people will see something like that and run with it as “hey, let’s have little Sam and Susie do something like that here in small town, america. After all, I just saw it at a Mass with the Pope.”

Accepted culturally at that time? To strip half naked? Then why was it even mentioned as a noteworthy event in Scripture, and why did Michal have a problem with it?

And your Sam and Susie problem is no different from those women who see male priests celebrating the Mass and saying ‘I can do that - furthermore I am determined to do that - I’m going to go get myself ordained!’ Should we stop showing males celebrating Mass lest women take wrong ideas away from it?

Or those who heard Christ talk about eating flesh and thought he meant cannibalism. Should He not have said that?

The church and the organisers of such events can’t be responsible for the fact that people inevitably take just about everything they do and say out of context.

 

[benedictgal]

Amen! King David danced - stripped half naked no less, in front of the very Ark of the Lord’s Presence no less. I imagine it would’ve looked not dissimilar to what happened at the Opening or Closing Masses. The Almighty had no reported problems, and took no scandal, with David expressing his joy by dancing in this manner in His presence, although David’s wife certainly did.

This is a favorite argument for those who promote “liturgical dance.” First of all, “dance” was not a part of the Cultic Worship of Yahweh. The Lord carefully dictated even the minutest detail of the manner, form and method by which he would be worshipped. These involved sacrifices. Dance was not a part of the ritual. What David did was something spontaneous, but, it was not part of the cultic worship of the Lord.

Furthermore, even though David wore the ephod, he was not a priest. Only a priest could direct the worship and offer the sacrifice for the people. What David did is similar to what people do in procession when, for example, a statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe is processed in the streets. It is not a liturgical act. It is more of a pious practice. When the Matachines (Aztec descendants) dance before her statue, it is similar to what King David did before the Ark. In fact, you could say that the Matachines are dancing before the new Ark of the Covenant because Mary carried the Bread of Heaven, the Author of the Law and the High Priest, what was symobolized in the Ark of the Old Testament (Manna, the tablet of the Commandments and the Rod of Aaron).

Incidentally, I was a little disheartened by the information provided by one of the EWTN hosts regarding the dance of the Fijis. He tried to justify what transpired by saying that in international events these things happen. He must not have read what Cardinal Arinze said regarding dance when he notes that:

Somebody can say, “but the pope visited this county and the people danced”. A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father – he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

While there are those who will make the argument that dance is part of the worship for these indigenous people, that is all well and good. However, it works when the Mass is celebrated specifically within the confines of their culture, not in an international venue such as WYD.

 

[nate12387]

This is a favorite argument for those who promote “liturgical dance.” First of all, “dance” was not a part of the Cultic Worship of Yahweh. The Lord carefully dictated even the minutest detail of the manner, form and method by which he would be worshipped. These involved sacrifices. Dance was not a part of the ritual. What David did was something spontaneous, but, it was not part of the cultic worship of the Lord.

Furthermore, even though David wore the ephod, he was not a priest. Only a priest could direct the worship and offer the sacrifice for the people. What David did is similar to what people do in procession when, for example, a statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe is processed in the streets. It is not a liturgical act. It is more of a pious practice. When the Matachines (Aztec descendants) dance before her statue, it is similar to what King David did before the Ark. In fact, you could say that the Matachines are dancing before the new Ark of the Covenant because Mary carried the Bread of Heaven, the Author of the Law and the High Priest, what was symobolized in the Ark of the Old Testament (Manna, the tablet of the Commandments and the Rod of Aaron).

Incidentally, I was a little disheartened by the information provided by one of the EWTN hosts regarding the dance of the Fijis. He tried to justify what transpired by saying that in international events these things happen. He must not have read what Cardinal Arinze said regarding dance when he notes that:

While there are those who will make the argument that dance is part of the worship for these indigenous people, that is all well and good. However, it works when the Mass is celebrated specifically within the confines of their culture, not in an international venue such as WYD.

I would disagree. Dance like this is perfectly acceptable at an international venue like this. It was the indigenous people who danced, only the indigenous people, not the other people in Sydney.

This is also a way these people worship. They are showing there culture, just like any other WYD. The culture is in other WYDs and Pope John Paul II didn’t say anything about it and I highly daught that Pope Benedict will say anything about it.

 

[benedictgal]

I would disagree. Dance like this is perfectly acceptable at an international venue like this. It was the indigenous people who danced, only the indigenous people, not the other people in Sydney.

This is also a way these people worship. They are showing there culture, just like any other WYD. The culture is in other WYDs and Pope John Paul II didn’t say anything about it and I highly daught that Pope Benedict will say anything about it.

Really, then why would Cardinal Arinze, who is an African prelate, make this kind of statement? Then, you would be disagreeing with his interpretation.

Somebody can say, “but the pope visited this county and the people danced”. A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father – he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

Furthermore, the Mass is some exercise in multi-culturalism. The dance was most inappropriate for this particular liturgy. Had the Mass been for the indigenous peoples, with that community comprising the majority of the faithful, then, that’s when inculturation comes into play. The fact that this was an international venue doesn’t apply here.

You can only take the inculturation argument so far. This isn’t one of those times. Furthermore, as BSHoop96 correctly observes, there may be some people who will see this and think that it’s perfectly fine to bring this kind of activity home. Believe me. I have seen this done down here, with the same justification you are quoting. That is why we have to be very careful in what we do during the Mass.

 

[nate12387]

Really, then why would Cardinal Arinze, who is an African prelate, make this kind of statement? Then, you would be disagreeing with his interpretation.

Furthermore, the Mass is some exercise in multi-culturalism. The dance was most inappropriate for this particular liturgy. Had the Mass been for the indigenous peoples, with that community comprising the majority of the faithful, then, that’s when inculturation comes into play. The fact that this was an international venue doesn’t apply here.

You can only take the inculturation argument so far. This isn’t one of those times. Furthermore, as BSHoop96 correctly observes, there may be some people who will see this and think that it’s perfectly fine to bring this kind of activity home. Believe me. I have seen this done down here, with the same justification you are quoting. That is why we have to be very careful in what we do during the Mass.

The African Prelate is probably right and BSHoop96 is probably right when he says that people might bring it home. That is where the Parish Paster has to come in and say something.

None of this however answers me when I said that each country that WYD goes to is going to has something of there culture in there mass. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI hasn’t said anything about that. I am not trying to say that people should bring these different culture things into there culture. What I am saying is that the country that WYD is in, that country will show there culture in there, Sydney was no different. If WYD was in the USA we would have things in the mass that other cultures that come here would think is weird and they shouldn’t bring those things back to his/her culture.

 

[BSHoop96]

Accepted culturally at that time? To strip half naked? Then why was it even mentioned as a noteworthy event in Scripture, and why did Michal have a problem with it?

I am talking about the way you bring things up that really…well aren’t applicable to the point we’re talking about. You pulled out the story of David dancing and we are talking about the Mass…today.

And your Sam and Susie problem is no different from those women who see male priests celebrating the Mass and saying ‘I can do that - furthermore I am determined to do that - I’m going to go get myself ordained!’ Should we stop showing males celebrating Mass lest women take wrong ideas away from it?

I see you’re off and running again. Totally different. A woman cannot become a man no matter how hard she tries. Anybody can dance. Doesn’t mean they should do it in Mass.

Or those who heard Christ talk about eating flesh and thought he meant cannibalism. Should He not have said that?

Oh, whatever.

The church and the organisers of such events can’t be responsible for the fact that people inevitably take just about everything they do and say out of context.

I don’t know why you’re in such a snit. I’m the one that said I didn’t find the dance in question in Australia to be a huge problem because it was cultural. I simply made the comment that it worries me a little because people have such a tendency to “take the ball and run with it.” Take a deep breath.

 

[benedictgal]

The African Prelate is probably right and BSHoop96 is probably right when he says that people might bring it home. That is where the Parish Paster has to come in and say something.

None of this however answers me when I said that each country that WYD goes to is going to has something of there culture in there mass. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI hasn’t said anything about that. I am not trying to say that people should bring these different culture things into there culture. What I am saying is that the country that WYD is in, that country will show there culture in there, Sydney was no different. If WYD was in the USA we would have things in the mass that other cultures that come here would think is weird and they shouldn’t bring those things back to his/her culture.

But, I respectfully believe that you are missing the point. The Mass is not some exercise in creativity. Nor is it a celebration of multi-cultural awareness. The issue of multi-culturalism was better suited for the Welcoming Ceremony. That is when you highlight your cultural diversity, not during the Mass.

Now, if the Holy Father had celebrated a Mass just for the tribal community in their homeland, then, the dance they performed is perfectly acceptable, because they are in their territory. However, WYD is not the venue for this kind of thing.

I recognize that BSHoop96 didn’t have a problem with the dance. Her concern, and it is rightfully so, centers around folks wanting to bring this kind of thing home because they saw it in a papal Mass.

This kind of tinkering sets a dangerous precedent. Leave the multi-cultural stuff for something outside the Mass. Don’t insert things into the Mass that do not belong there.

 

[nate12387]

But, I respectfully believe that you are missing the point. The Mass is not some exercise in creativity. Nor is it a celebration of multi-cultural awareness. The issue of multi-culturalism was better suited for the Welcoming Ceremony. That is when you highlight your cultural diversity, not during the Mass.

Now, if the Holy Father had celebrated a Mass just for the tribal community in their homeland, then, the dance they performed is perfectly acceptable, because they are in their territory. However, WYD is not the venue for this kind of thing.

I recognize that BSHoop96 didn’t have a problem with the dance. Her concern, and it is rightfully so, centers around folks wanting to bring this kind of thing home because they saw it in a papal Mass.

This kind of tinkering sets a dangerous precedent. Leave the multi-cultural stuff for something outside the Mass. Don’t insert things into the Mass that do not belong there.

I would agree that we shouldn’t go against the prescribed set of things given to us by Rome. But the bishops in each country, like the US, can change things from Rome with Rome’s permission. So already the mass is going to be different from country to country. That tells me that Rome knows that this one set doesn’t fit all. If everyone went with Rome with no changes, they probably would get anything out if it at all.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Now, if the Holy Father had celebrated a Mass just for the tribal community in their homeland, then, the dance they performed is perfectly acceptable, because they are in their territory. However, WYD is not the venue for this kind of thing.

.

Wait, aren’t the people doing the PROCESSION native Austrailians? In Austrailia? I could be wrong, it’s happened before… I think it’s amusing when we (white Americans) start telling tribal peoples how they should worship.

And wouldn’t Cardinal Pell have been part of the planning and okaying of most of these elements?

 

[LilyM]

But, I respectfully believe that you are missing the point. The Mass is not some exercise in creativity. Nor is it a celebration of multi-cultural awareness. The issue of multi-culturalism was better suited for the Welcoming Ceremony. That is when you highlight your cultural diversity, not during the Mass.

Now, if the Holy Father had celebrated a Mass just for the tribal community in their homeland, then, the dance they performed is perfectly acceptable, because they are in their territory. However, WYD is not the venue for this kind of thing.

I recognize that BSHoop96 didn’t have a problem with the dance. Her concern, and it is rightfully so, centers around folks wanting to bring this kind of thing home because they saw it in a papal Mass.

This kind of tinkering sets a dangerous precedent. Leave the multi-cultural stuff for something outside the Mass. Don’t insert things into the Mass that do not belong there.

Australia IS the homeland of the Aboriginal people - it IS their territory, every inch of this country - there’s no other place where he COULD celebrate Mass for the Aboriginal people or where they COULD incorporate their culture fer crying out loud! It’s not multi-culture, it’s Australian culture, indigenous to this land.

 

[mullenpm]

I watched the “Final Mass” for WYD in Sydney and my first impression of the Gospel Procession was surprise, but if you watched and thought about what you were watching the symbolism of the dancers was apparent. They were guarding the Gospel Book and their dance was agressive, but that was their job.

Father Mark from EWTN who was discussing this Procession after the Mass mentioned that in many parts of the world dance is used only for religious purposes; whereas, in the US dance is secular.

They also mentioned that a number of the dancers were seminarians and one was a Priest (possibly the man who handed the Gospel Book to the Deacon).

The dancers were from Figi. Normally I would not like dancers at Mass but somehow this seemed appropriate; although I will say that the Deacon who received the Book did have a pained look on his face. Perhaps just nerves to get his part in the procession right.

 

[Jennifer_J]

watching the symbolism of the dancers was apparent. They were guarding the Gospel Book and their dance was agressive, but that was their job.

That’s exatly what I thought, too.

 

[Frosty]

Personally, I thought the Gospel procession was beautiful and moving. It wasn’t what I would consider a liturgical dance at all. [Not that I have ever seen one in any church I’ve attended!]. I saw it as a group of indigenous men accompaning the Holy Book like a guard of honour according to their culture. Perhaps some of you would have been happier to see a dozen Grand Knights of Columbus all decked out in capes, swords and flowing plumes? Also, the procession didn’t enter the sanctuary but was met at the foot of it by a deacon and acolytes who received the Book and then carried it into the sanctuary.
If World Youth Day isn’t a multicultural event, then what is?

 

[ethelzguy]

Personally, I thought the Gospel procession was beautiful and moving. It wasn’t what I would consider a liturgical dance at all. [Not that I have ever seen one in any church I’ve attended!]. I saw it as a group of indigenous men accompaning the Holy Book like a guard of honour according to their culture. Perhaps some of you would have been happier to see a dozen Grand Knights of Columbus all decked out in capes, swords and flowing plumes? Also, the procession didn’t enter the sanctuary but was met at the foot of it by a deacon and acolytes who received the Book and then carried it into the sanctuary.
If World Youth Day isn’t a multicultural event, then what is?

It seems to be an “opportunity” for some to critique and criticize the Church, for the most part.

 

[benedictgal]

As I noted before, if you want multi-culturalism, then, the appropriate venue was the Welcoming Ceremony. The dance to welcome the Holy Father was appropriate. However, when you start introducing things into the Mass for creativity and misguided and misplaced inculturation, then, there are problems.

The Mass was not about the indigenous peoples. It was universal. Had the majority of fhe faithful been comprised of this particular tribal group, then, certainly inculturation comes into play. However, this was certainliy not the case at WYD. It was misplaced and it was a misguided effort to insert something into the Mass that doesn’t belong there.

 

[BSHoop96]

As I noted before, if you want multi-culturalism, then, the appropriate venue was the Welcoming Ceremony. The dance to welcome the Holy Father was appropriate. However, when you start introducing things into the Mass for creativity and misguided and misplaced inculturation, then, there are problems.

The Mass was not about the indigenous peoples. It was universal. Had the majority of fhe faithful been comprised of this particular tribal group, then, certainly inculturation comes into play. However, this was certainliy not the case at WYD. It was misplaced and it was a misguided effort to insert something into the Mass that doesn’t belong there.

I am torn. You have made some excellent points here.

 

[nate12387]

As I noted before, if you want multi-culturalism, then, the appropriate venue was the Welcoming Ceremony. The dance to welcome the Holy Father was appropriate. However, when you start introducing things into the Mass for creativity and misguided and misplaced inculturation, then, there are problems.

The Mass was not about the indigenous peoples. It was universal. Had the majority of fhe faithful been comprised of this particular tribal group, then, certainly inculturation comes into play. However, this was certainliy not the case at WYD. It was misplaced and it was a misguided effort to insert something into the Mass that doesn’t belong there.

The dance was done by the aborigines in Australia. What other place can they do this besides there native land. Lets also think about who made the mass. The Mass was made, for the most part, by American and Europeans who put there culture in there.

I would agree that the mass is universal and we can’t add anything to make it better. But I also know that the mass is a ritual that could be changed tomorrow. Being that the Pope is above any documents about the mass however, he could change it tomorrow and allow dance in the mass. He could tell every country that they would have to have dance in the mass.

I also know that each countries council of bishops can change or add things with the approval of the pope. This means that all ready the mass is different from country to country.

Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. I would think that the same principle applies here for the mass.

 

[mullenpm]

nate12387, actually the Gospel Procession dance was not done by Australian aboriginies; the group was from Figi and included a number of seminarians and one priest; the remainder were Catholic lay people from Figi.

Since this so-called “intrusion” into the Mass was obviously approved by all the Church leaders - and actually considered a liturgical dance by the Figi people - who are we to judge the leaders of our own Church, especially the Holy Father.

 

[benedictgal]

The dance was done by the aborigines in Australia. What other place can they do this besides there native land. Lets also think about who made the mass. The Mass was made, for the most part, by American and Europeans who put there culture in there.

I would agree that the mass is universal and we can’t add anything to make it better. But I also know that the mass is a ritual that could be changed tomorrow. Being that the Pope is above any documents about the mass however, he could change it tomorrow and allow dance in the mass. He could tell every country that they would have to have dance in the mass.

I also know that each countries council of bishops can change or add things with the approval of the pope. This means that all ready the mass is different from country to country.

Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. I would think that the same principle applies here for the mass.

It is interesting how Jesus’ words are often used to justify something completely out of context. Jeuss said these words, in last week’s Gospel reading (daily Msas) because the Pharisees were attacking Him and HIs disciples for plucking the grains from the wheat and eating them. This was not in the context of the cultic worship of the Lord.

The problem with the repeated justification of what happened during yesterday’s Mass is that the issue of incuilturation only and directly applies to those folks who are indigenous to the territory and who comprise the majority of the fatihful assembled for the Mass. Just like the Chlidren’s Eucharistic Prayers can only be used when children make up the majority of the faithful, the same concept holds true here.

WYD is an international venue. Multi-cultural celebrations are left to welcoming ceremonies and the like, but, should not happen during the Mass. Diversity also means division. We are ONE Church. Although we are made up of different peoples, cultures and nationalities, all of these divisions and diversities end when we begin the Mass. There is no such thing as an American Church, an Australian Church, a Mexican Church, an Italian Church nor an African Church. Catholic means universal. The Church recognizes diversity, but, it doesn’t make it the focal point of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

nate12387, actually the Gospel Procession dance was not done by Australian aboriginies; the group was from Figi and included a number of seminarians and one priest; the remainder were Catholic lay people from Figi.

Since this so-called “intrusion” into the Mass was obviously approved by all the Church leaders - and actually considered a liturgical dance by the Figi people - who are we to judge the leaders of our own Church, especially the Holy Father.

Again, I direct you to the quote from Francis Cardinal Arinze who notes that:

Somebody can say, “but the pope visited this county and the people danced”. A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father – he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

The bottom line is that something was introduced into the Mass that had no business being there. Furthermore, the Book of the Gospels is normally carried in during the Entrance Procession, something that was not done at either Mass.