When is it okay to cross ones self in the Mass?

[Rhonda_Renee]

My husband and I just came into the Catholic Church 3 weeks ago. It’s been a long journey but, we’re so at peace and happy to be a part of the Church.
My question stems from our “wanderings”. We attended an Eastern Orthodox church for some time and my husband, like many of the parishioners, crossed himself often during the liturgy. Now, that we’re Catholic, he crosses himself frequently when others don’t. I don’t want him to feel he has to give up this kind of outward devotion. But, is it okay that he does this? Is it anything more than just being potentially distracting to those who sit in the pew with us?

Thanks.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

My husband and I just came into the Catholic Church 3 weeks ago. It’s been a long journey but, we’re so at peace and happy to be a part of the Church.
My question stems from our “wanderings”. We attended an Eastern Orthodox church for some time and my husband, like many of the parishioners, crossed himself often during the liturgy. Now, that we’re Catholic, he crosses himself frequently when others don’t. I don’t want him to feel he has to give up this kind of outward devotion. But, is it okay that he does this? Is it anything more than just being potentially distracting to those who sit in the pew with us?

Thanks.

Um, that is a good question. I understand his practice because of his Eastern liturgical background. I would however suggest that he try and follow the liturgical practices of the Rite he is attending Mass or Divine Liturgy in. In other words “when in Rome do like the Romans do”, just like when I attend a Byzantine, Chaldean, or Maronite Divine Liturgy, I do as they do.

 

[Linda_Marie]

On the other hand, his devotion could be a witness to lukewarm Catholics to become on fire with their faith, if they notice. There is usually a great deal of movement and noise from children.
I tried to imagine myself at Mass with a gentleman in a nearby pew crossing himself at parts of the Mass where the general congregation does not. Then I put the families that usually go to the same Mass as I do in the surrounding pews. I don’t think I’d find it distracting at all, especially, if I’m trying to ingore the child running around the pew next to me. It actually pales to insignificance as a distraction. Quite the contrary, it would probably make me ponder. It would make me think that something that was just said or done had more significance to him and perhaps it should have more significance to me as well. I should be doing a better job of focusing on the priest and what is going on at the altar. It would call me to pay attention.

Just my :twocents: .

 

[homewardbound]

I asked this question before to those I attend Mass with and they told me I can cross myself whenever I feel led too.

Who cares what other people think of it? We go to Mass to worship and glorify God. Crossing ones self in one way of doing this.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I asked this question before to those I attend Mass with and they told me I can cross myself whenever I feel led too.

Who cares what other people think of it? We go to Mass to worship and glorify God. Crossing ones self in one way of doing this.

It must be remembered however that Mass is not a collection of personal devotions, it is the Liturgy of the Church.

 

[VeronicaAnne]

Welcome home, Rhonda!! to your dear husband, as well!! Welcome, welcome, welcome home!!

Crossing oneself is not a “personal devotion.” It’s a reasonable response to an unreasonable Mystery.

(p.s. Now, saying the rosary or the Divine Mercy – both personal devotions – DURING Mass is not advised because each of them are superceded by the Mass, itself.

I’d hate to think that anybody thought I was not “playing with the band,” so to speak, if they saw me cross myself at a time when I was experiencing the true need to do so in response to my Lord at the re-presentation of His sacrifice in an unbloody way. As long as I do it without some huge fanfare, there’s no “distraction component” to it.

Sometimes at Mass my experience of Jesus is just so intense that I really must do something… and crossing myself is a natural and almost instinctive action that I find myself doing.

Ya never know what is going on inside someone. And therefore, it’s not necessary to judge their crossing themselves, or not crossing themselves, when other people either are, or are not, crossing themselves at the same time.

If anybody has a problem with you or your husband crossing yourselves from time to time, it’s only because they are not quite aware of why you are doing it. And they are letting themselves be distracted rather than paying attention to what’s going on at the altar.

By the way, there’s a very good, informative book on the Sign of the Cross written by Bert Ghezzi. You can get it at EWTN’s religious catalogue. I happen to have owned that book until I gave it to someone else who needed it more than I did once I had read it.

Here’s the page…

ewtnreligiouscatalogue.com/SIGN+OF+THE+CROSS/keywords=sign+of+the+cross/page_no=1/edp_no=3316/shop.axd/ProductDetails

[SIGN OF THE CROSS
Christians worldwide have been blessing themselves with the sign of the cross for centuries. Few who use this familiar gesture know its impact as a powerful prayer. With insights derived from Scripture, Church teachings and personal experience, Bert Ghezzi encourages people to utilize this powerful sign in daily life.

Hardcover. 120 pages. Price: $17.00
Item # BK CHH 06196 ](http://www.ewtnreligiouscatalogue.c...page_no=1/edp_no=3316/shop.axd/ProductDetails)

 

[Vittorio23]

Certain people bow their heads or gently beat their chests (not speaking during the Confetitor) throughout the Mass; I do not see how privately making the sign of the cross could be in anyway a bad thing.

 

[puzzleannie]

I also have this problem sometimes, because growing up we often went to the Byzantine Church, and also when I lived in Cleveland, because of my work locations, the Byzantine or Ruthenian churches were closer, so I did get in the habit of a lot more crossing (but I stuck out like sore thumb for doing it backwards).

yes Latin rite Catholics should get in the habit of doing the rite right, but it takes education, and old habits are hard to break. I can’t come up with any scenario where making the sign of the cross would ever be wrong or inappropriate, as long as the right practice for the occasion is observed.

anybody who has a problem with your husband’s devotion needs an old fashioned nun with a pointer to come along, rap them on the head with it, and remind them to attend to their own prayer and participation at Mass and quit looking around at others.

 

[THurifer2]

You will find the modernists here frown upon it becuase for the most part they despise personal acts of piety. I cross myself after the penitential rite

 

[Jenny_Z]

You can cross yourself whenever you feel like it… I don’t think the priest or anyone would go to your pew and tell you to stop

 

[LilyM]

You will find the modernists here frown upon it becuase for the most part they despise personal acts of piety. I cross myself after the penitential rite

I don’t call myself a traditionalist by any stretch of the imagination but I have no problem with such ‘personal acts of piety’, and I don’t think most modernists do for the most part. Although there are some, of course, who mistakenly see in such things an express or implied attitude of superiority or criticism of those who don’t. Then again, some traditionalists will see a similar attitude in those who DON’T make such gestures, it goes both ways.

I cross myself after the penitential rite too, and see more and more other massgoers doing so lately as well … and at the consecration - and at other times when the Body and Blood are elevated and I feel moved to make a gesture of adoration.

 

[THurifer2]

I cross myself after the penitential rite too, and see more and more other massgoers doing so lately as well … and at the consecration - and at other times when the Body and Blood are elevated and I feel moved to make a gesture of adoration.

I am not sure if anyone in my church crosses themselves or not after the penitential rite…cause I am not looking… but when I do it I do it so subtly that I am sure no one sees me do it. However when I am doing the acolyte duty I refrain from doing it so I don’t draw attention.

 

[Windmill]

private devotions shouldn’t draw undo attention to themselves…then they aren’t private…they are distracting.

I tend to have my own little devotions (e.g. quietly say the “Domine, non sum dignus” in Latin instead of the horrid English translation). but most of them are tied to what’s going on at the time…not something independent.

I do find it interesting that people cross themselves at the penitential rite. most people, if you ask them why, have no idea…or they say it was something thier parents did. However, it has come about because of a specific confusion.

Back in the pre-concilliar rite of Mass, the penitential rite was followed by the Indulgentiam absolution prayer. It was during this prayer that a sign of the cross was done per the rubrics. Leading up to the Council, there was a growing concern that Catholics were beginning to think that this absolution absolved Mass-goers from serious sin. It doesn’t…it only absolves venial sin. So, the Indulgentiam absolution was removed from the Mass.

However, for centuries past, Catholics had been used to crossing themselves at the beginning of this absolution prayer, and many others were used to improperly crossing themselves during the penitential rite in anticipation of the Indulgentiam. After the changes, many still continued to cross themselves during the penitential rite…even though the prayer which this SotC accompanied is not longer even present.

I don’t make a big deal of it, but I find it interesting that many think they are being traditional when, in fact, they have no idea why they do it.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

There is nothing bad with it but personally I wouldn’t do it for one simple reason: It’s not a tradition in the Latin Church. I simply don’t like when half of the people do one thing and half something else. I believe that when one attends a liturgy, he should try embrace the traditions of the particular rite, especially since he is now Latin Catholic and attends the Mass regularly. Of course that doesn’t mean that in our private prayers we can’t do whatever we want. If I go to a Byzantine Catholic church, I don’t genuflect and I try to cross myself the way they do it during their Divine Liturgy. Of course I do it partially so I don’t attract attention as a visitor but also partially for the reason stated above.

And by the way, welcome Home!

 

[VeronicaAnne]

Certain people bow their heads or gently beat their chests (not speaking during the Confetitor) throughout the Mass; I do not see how privately making the sign of the cross could be in anyway a bad thing.

You’ll see folks who beat their chests — three times – during the Act of Contrition. This was the liturgical action that everyone did – while at the same time saying “mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa” –

Through my fault (beat chest the first time)

Through my fault (beat chest the second time)

Through my most grevious fault (beat chest the third time)

It is part of the Tridentine (sometimes called “the Latin”) form of the Mass. It is not part of the Novus Ordo (the form instituted at the second Vatican Council) form of the Mass.

Just thought I’d mention that.

 

[VeronicaAnne]

anybody who has a problem with your husband’s devotion needs an old fashioned nun with a pointer to come along, rap them on the head with it, and remind them to attend to their own prayer and participation at Mass and quit looking around at others.

:tsktsk:
:crying:
Gee… could you please respect our religious (nuns, sisters) and not slam them as a group, please? It’s not funny. It’s not a joke. It’s an insult. Pure and simple. Totally not necessary. Thanks!

 

[Windmill]

You’ll see folks who beat their chests — three times – during the Act of Contrition. This was the liturgical action that everyone did – while at the same time saying “mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa” –

Through my fault (beat chest the first time)

Through my fault (beat chest the second time)

Through my most grevious fault (beat chest the third time)

It is part of the Tridentine (sometimes called “the Latin”) form of the Mass. It is not part of the Novus Ordo (the form instituted at the second Vatican Council) form of the Mass.

Just thought I’d mention that.

Actually…the triple beating of the breast is still the official liturgical action for this part of the Mass according to the official document of the Mass, the Missale Romanum 2002 (edicio typica tertia), aka the Novus Ordo form of Mass. The ICEL translation we use in the USA stripped out two “mea culpas” and breast-beatings, but it’s still there in the original Latin and in other translations of the current missal.

Also, this form of Mass was not instituted at the Second Vatican Council. The New Mass was approved years after the Council convened and was drawn up by a small group of “experts” who convened after all the bishops of the council had gone home. To be even more specific, that group created the Missal of 1965 which was a stepping stone to the current form of Mass, the Missal of Paul VI (1970).

 

[VeronicaAnne]

Actually…the triple beating of the breast is still the official liturgical action for this part of the Mass according to the official document of the Mass, the Missale Romanum 2002 (edicio typica tertia), aka the Novus Ordo form of Mass. The ICEL translation we use in the USA stripped out two “mea culpas” and breast-beatings, but it’s still there in the original Latin and in other translations of the current missal.

Also, this form of Mass was not instituted at the Second Vatican Council. The New Mass was approved years after the Council convened and was drawn up by a small group of “experts” who convened after all the bishops of the council had gone home. To be even more specific, that group created the Missal of 1965 which was a stepping stone to the current form of Mass, the Missal of Paul VI (1970).

Never knew that. Thanks.

Actually, all we have is what we remember from back then, doing it when Mass was still with the priest’s back to you and nobody replied from the pews because it was the choir up in the balcony above who sang all the responses.

These days, all we have is a paperback missalette that often does not include all the words of the order of the Mass. Sad, yes, but true.

I’ve never had access to the actual full missal other than the St. Joseph’s Missal that Mom gave to each of us kids to take to Mass with us growing up before the 2nd council was invoked in the early 60’s. Much less the documents to which you referred in your post (above).

What does ICEL stand for? Should I know that acronymn?

And it’s not like there was much education about what the changes were in the 60’s, either. Frustrating, but we all tend to make it through alright, anywho, without using the missalette that by the time you switch from this section and page to the other section for the right spot to follow, you’ve lost where you’re supposed to be. And hope that the next misallette is more “follow-able” – especially for a friend who’s never been to a Mass has come with you to Mass. Very frustrating for them especially if they want to go along with the flow (excuse the pun? "do as the Romans do).

I’m amazed that at some Masses, Father has to tell people to “stand” when it’s time to stand. And I really do wish that he wouldn’t say “now, hold hands with the ones beside you as we pray the Our Father.” :banghead:

 

[THurifer2]

.

I do find it interesting that people cross themselves at the penitential rite. most people, if you ask them why, have no idea…or they say it was something thier parents did. However, it has come about because of a specific confusion.

Back in the pre-concilliar rite of Mass, the penitential rite was followed by the Indulgentiam absolution prayer. It was during this prayer that a sign of the cross was done per the rubrics. Leading up to the Council, there was a growing concern that Catholics were beginning to think that this absolution absolved Mass-goers from serious sin. It doesn’t…it only absolves venial sin. So, the Indulgentiam absolution was removed from the Mass.

However, for centuries past, Catholics had been used to crossing themselves at the beginning of this absolution prayer, and many others were used to improperly crossing themselves during the penitential rite in anticipation of the Indulgentiam. After the changes, many still continued to cross themselves during the penitential rite…even though the prayer which this SotC accompanied is not longer even present.

I don’t make a big deal of it, but I find it interesting that many think they are being traditional when, in fact, they have no idea why they do it.

Interesting.
All along I have been unwittingly coming across as a traditionalist. Crossing myself at the penitential rite was nothing I learned from any tradition. I do it because I feel compelled to make a gesture at the forgiveness of those sins that are suffocating my soul. Those sins may not be killing my soul but they are stabbing it repeatedly…crossing myself is a personal reminder at the gravity of venial sin…even though venial sin is not fatal…it is most offensive to the king of kings. Venial sin caused terrible pain at the crucifixion. And crossing myself reminds me of it.

 

[Rhonda_Renee]

I just want to thank everyone for replying - your comments have all been helpful.
-Rhonda