When Is Judging Neccessary?

[BHL_20]

Ok, so I’m thinking about judging and whether it’s our duty to judge every act, especially in an emotionally involved way. Now, if someone sins in our proximity, it may often be prudent to admonish them as they may be unaware that what they’re doing is wrong. For that, some judging is required.

But what about a sin committed by someone whom we cannot influence. Say we hear about an atrocious crime on the news. Would it be wrong to adopt a mindset of: “There have always been psychopaths in society. It is normal for such crimes to be committed sometimes.” And have no emotional reaction, e.g. feeling a sense of injustice, anger or disgust. Would this attitude be sinful?

I know we can still pray for people far away, but we aren’t strictly obliged to.

Any thoughts?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Judging is necessary if another person is my dependent or otherwise I have custody over them.

Otherwise I can go nuts trying to get Catholics to just take our Lord at His word.

We say oh we just judge the sin not the sinner well that’s stupid because you can’t judge that a sin has been committed, without someone having committed it.

We can say something destructive took place, and grieve the loss of our living room whether it was destroyed by a drunk driver, or by a meteorite. We call one a sin and not the other for what purpose? Exacting punishment? That’s fine in a court or law but in the soul of the Christian it’s excess baggage – just like worldly wealth is our bank of judgment that gives us security because we feel like we know who’s naughty or nice.

Jesus has a good reason for saying this. Once we judge something, we become emotionally invested in it and it can actually control us. Now we have to monitor whether our judgment will hold up – or be proven wrong. What if it changes later? What if some other information comes in and I don’t notice it and I’m wrong? What if I’m not seeing something? What if I’m seeing everything and making it too complicated?

But then what if we judge something as OK and then it bites us? Not only do we suffer the bite but the ego bruise and the hurt feelings of being betrayed because we were fooled. There are so many complexities once one sets forth to judge, that just dissolve in a big Don’t Care if you actually let go and trust the Holy Spirit really does have things under control and we don’t have to rub His nose in it when there is something happening we think He needs to know about.

If you can just completely let go and imagine a world where just for five minutes it’s Not Your Job to determine anything at all right or wrong with the world. Just look at it, warts and all, like you’re looking at clouds and finding formations in them.

Use Jesus’s words as thought exercises, not commands. Imagine how radical I can not judge? Like what if I see an argument and take sides? Then what if the same argument happened in a language I didn’t know? Suddenly I’m relieved of the burden of caring who is right. Just be like that. Don’t care who is right. Plant good seeds, speak your truth, let others answer to God for themselves.

 

[christofirst]

Ok, so I’m thinking about judging and whether it’s our duty to judge every act, especially in an emotionally involved way. Now, if someone sins in our proximity, it may often be prudent to admonish them as they may be unaware that what they’re doing is wrong. For that, some judging is required.

But what about a sin committed by someone whom we cannot influence. Say we hear about an atrocious crime on the news. Would it be wrong to adopt a mindset of: “There have always been psychopaths in society. It is normal for such crimes to be committed sometimes.” And have no emotional reaction, e.g. feeling a sense of injustice, anger or disgust. Would this attitude be sinful?

I know we can still pray for people far away, but we aren’t strictly obliged to.

Any thoughts?

That one could say, “that’s just the way it is” and have no emotional reaction to yet another tragic event or senseless act of violence could be a sign of desensitization. Thanks to the news and our now constant electronic connectedness, it is easy to become overwhelmed by all the bad news and misery, and seemingly to stop caring. Maybe it is a coping mechanism, but I do not see it as sinful.

Now, if you recognize this tendency and it troubles you, why not make a conscious effort, even if you do not necessarily feel so moved, to offer a prayer for everyone involved in the tragedy. It costs us very little to say, “Lord, receive the souls of those who died, heal the injured, console the survivors, and bring any perpetrators to repentance.” There is no need to try to drum up false emotion if you feel none. But no, I don’t find the situation you describe sinful.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

That one could say, “that’s just the way it is” and have no emotional reaction to yet another tragic event or senseless act of violence could be a sign of desensitization. Thanks to the news and our now constant electronic connectedness, it is easy to become overwhelmed by all the bad news and misery, and seemingly to stop caring. Maybe it is a coping mechanism, but I do not see it as sinful.

Now, if you recognize this tendency and it troubles you, why not make a conscious effort, even if you do not necessarily feel so moved, to offer a prayer for everyone involved in the tragedy. It costs us very little to say, “Lord, receive the souls of those who died, heal the injured, console the survivors, and bring any perpetrators to repentance.” There is no need to try to drum up false emotion if you feel none. But no, I don’t find the situation you describe sinful.

 

[Beryllos]

Jesus told us to love one another. Our loving is more important than our judging. To love is to will the good of another. Before we judge another, we must examine whether the good of the other is likely to be promoted by our judging. I think usually it is not.

I would also be concerned about the adverse effects that judging may have on our own spiritual health. It can’t be healthy to dwell on other people’s faults and failings, or to try to guess their motives and intentions. There is also the risk of being too proud of our own righteousness.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Jesus told us to love one another. Our loving is more important than our judging. To love is to will the good of another. Before we judge another, we must examine whether the good of the other is likely to be promoted by our judging. I think usually it is not.

I would also be concerned about the adverse effects that judging may have on our own spiritual health. It can’t be healthy to dwell on other people’s faults and failings, or to try to guess their motives and intentions. There is also the risk of being too proud of our own righteousness.

He said do not judge or I will be judged. I guess that means that I should judge others whenever I want to be judged. :slapfight:

That said, I don’t mind a little judgment now and then; it shows me where my slip may be showing.

 

[mdgspencer]

Let me give some examples.
It is not necessary for us to judge someone guilty of atrocious crimes who we hear about in the news. You ask when it is “necessary” to judge.
We should judge something when it is a matter of guiding and protecting our children.
We should judge good and evil when considering the stands of people when we vote–for example, if they will pass laws promoting abortion.
If someone would listen, it can be a great act of charity to correct someone. I would think it necessary if we know we would actually help them.
If someone seeks to get us involved in their evildoing or to give them our approval, we need to judge.
We can judge evildoing without judging the moral state of the person, which we can leave to God.

 

[InNomineDomini]

And have no emotional reaction, e.g. feeling a sense of injustice, anger or disgust. Would this attitude be sinful?

We are never under a moral obligation to experience a particular emotion given a certain circumstance.

However, we are required to love, and the type of love we are to mete out to others is an act of the will.

Moreover, cultivating an apathy for others, or refusing to will their good, can certainly be a problematic spiritual attitude.

Regarding judgement, Fr. Hardon’s ethical definition of the word:

In ethics, judgment is a right decision about what is just or proper or prudent. (catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34407)

In this sense, judging is necessary whenever we are to make a moral decision.

We could also judge other people’s actions in this way, and do so almost unconsciously, the moment we hear about a particular behavior they’ve engaged in. (For example, if we find out our neighbor has just set fire to his boss’ house, we may judge this action as being an objective moral evil.)

But we are to judge them with mercy and with compassion, fully aware of how often we ourselves fall short. We may not, under any circumstances, make declarations about another person’s culpability given a particular behavior, and we may not judge whether or not another person is in a state of grace.

A useful article: ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/what-did-jesus-mean-when-he-said-not-to-judge-others-10-things-to-know-and/

 

[anon87900350]

Ok, so I’m thinking about judging and whether it’s our duty to judge every act, especially in an emotionally involved way. Now, if someone sins in our proximity, it may often be prudent to admonish them as they may be unaware that what they’re doing is wrong. For that, some judging is required.

But what about a sin committed by someone whom we cannot influence. Say we hear about an atrocious crime on the news. Would it be wrong to adopt a mindset of: “There have always been psychopaths in society. It is normal for such crimes to be committed sometimes.” And have no emotional reaction, e.g. feeling a sense of injustice, anger or disgust. Would this attitude be sinful?

I know we can still pray for people far away, but we aren’t strictly obliged to.

Any thoughts?

Ideally, there shouldn’t be an emotional reaction to someone committing an atrocious crime. Emotional reactions are earthly; and it involves judgment. If you have fully surrendered to Him, you would just be an accepting witness. By that I mean, acceptance of that individual, despite his actions. If you have surrendered yourself to Him, and have perfected yourself through your thoughts and actions to receive at least three of the seven gifts of the holy spirit–the gift of understanding, the gift of wisdom and the gift of counsel; you will be able to see into the truth of any situation, and act on the right course of action regarding any individual’s action, or situation. Until we are blessed with the gifts of wisdom, understanding and counsel; we will all be prey to the vice of judgment no matter how hard we try. I’ll copy and paste explanations of wisdom, understanding, and counsel.

Wisdom is the perfection of faith. As Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J., notes in his Modern Catholic Dictionary, “Where faith is a simple knowledge of the articles of Christian belief, wisdom goes on to a certain divine penetration of the truths themselves.” The better we understand those truths, the more we value them properly. Thus wisdom, the Catholic Encyclopedia notes, “by detaching us from the world, makes us relish and love only the things of heaven.” Through wisdom, we judge the things of the world in light of the highest end of man—the contemplation of God.

Understanding is the second of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit enumerated in Isaiah 11:2-3, behind only wisdom. It differs from wisdom in that wisdom is the desire to contemplate the things of God, while understanding allows us, as Fr. John A. Hardon writes in his Modern Catholic Dictionary, to “penetrate to the very core of revealed truths.” This doesn’t mean that we can come to understand, say, the Trinity the way that we might a mathematical equation, but that we become certain of the truth of the doctrine of the Trinity. Such certitude moves beyond faith, which “merely assents to what God has revealed.”

Counsel, the third of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit enumerated in Isaiah 11:2-3, is the perfection of the cardinal virtue of prudence. While prudence, like all the cardinal virtues, can be practiced by anyone, whether in a state of grace or not, it can take on a supernatural dimension through sanctifying grace. Counsel is the fruit of this supernatural prudence.Like prudence, counsel allows us to judge rightly what we should do in a particular circumstance. It goes beyond prudence, though, in allowing such judgments to be made promptly, “as by a sort of supernatural intuition,” as Fr. John A. Hardon writes in his Modern Catholic Dictionary. When we are infused with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, we respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit as if by instinct.

So, I’d say judging is never necessary. In order to avoid judging, we must strive to be in a state of grace with God.

 

[Anglewannabe]

Ok, so I’m thinking about judging and whether it’s our duty to judge every act, especially in an emotionally involved way.

No, we can not be so compulsive as to make a judgment, (or even spend time thinking) about EVERY act

Now, if someone sins in our proximity, it may often be prudent to admonish them as they may be unaware that what they’re doing is wrong. For that, some judging is required. .

The only judgement in that situation is about ourselves; IE is God calling me to act or not

I know we can still pray for people far away, but we aren’t strictly obliged to.

We aren’t obliged to pray for any one or at all for that matter. We pray out of love

Now, there is a difference between judging and evaluating. Judging whether someone goes to heaven or hell is God’s job, not ours. However, evaluating is something we should do to help us be prudent

 

[Ralph_Cooper]

Let’s make our lives so innocent when it left out the vile pleasures, the deceit and fraud of the world. Prayer gives us a solid foundation to build and trim repair all other relationships in my life. Pray warning that we are not alone in their faith life. Prayer is not just pull me closer to God, but it also combines the holy one to each other that the love of God is like us. A simple prayer reminds us that God can not be approached alone, only those who live in the love of God met. We need to understand the prayer to find the truth and happiness that we seek always constant.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Let me give some examples.
It is not necessary for us to judge someone guilty of atrocious crimes who we hear about in the news. You ask when it is “necessary” to judge.
We should judge something when it is a matter of guiding and protecting our children.
We should judge good and evil when considering the stands of people when we vote–for example, if they will pass laws promoting abortion.
If someone would listen, it can be a great act of charity to correct someone. I would think it necessary if we know we would actually help them.
If someone seeks to get us involved in their evildoing or to give them our approval, we need to judge.
We can judge evildoing without judging the moral state of the person, which we can leave to God.

These are very good practical suggestions, and the CCC discusses these things.

But to me, when this is presented as “why we have to judge” it is just a way to rationalize our opinions, as if these are exceptions to the Lord’s advice “do not judge.”

If I had $1,000 to give away, I’d have a hard time finding someone to give it for just being willing to try – just try – giving up the whole “judge” thing.

Jesus saw the slaughter of an innocent man, from the point of view of the victim. He did not judge them guilty, for “they know not what they do.” And we DARE judge people we’ve never even met, nor walked in their shoes.

Again, describing something as destructive it NOT the same as “identifying a sin” nor are taking measure to reduce risk of harm, “punishing a sinner.”

And yet we think we have to judge this and judge that. Some of our religious leaders have sold us a bill of goods and are leading us away from Jesus’s teachings, in the name of We Know Better.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

As long as we’re judging evil, when did Christ ever tell anyone they should go to Caesar and petition for Caesar to prohibit, under threat of removal of life, liberty, or property, the sins of others?

Are we not putting a scary face on Jesus by saying, “do what is right – or else – because our Savior loves you”? We are creating a caricature of Jesus that from a public point of view, behaves just like those whose opinions we denounce.

 

[bobballen_18]

Not saying that we should be going around looking for situations in which we can judge people’s behavior - in fact, as has been mentioned, the only time we should be making judgments about behavior should be when they are either directly relating to situations we are involved in or if we are being asked about our faith and about the morality of certain actions. But in that context we absolutely must make judgments about behavior. A lot of these responses seem to reflect the thought that judging one’s actions and loving that person are at odds, and I think that is an absurd idea. Jim Blackburn, an apologist with Catholic Answers, gave a good thorough answer about this - obviously we have to be charitable about it, and in order to “legitimately” judge we also ourselves must be striving to live righteous lives. If those two conditions are met - being charitable and striving to live righteously ourselves - we can effectively judge others’ behavior. If you want to read the whole answer, here it is: catholic.com/magazine/articles/judge-not

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

A lot of these responses seem to reflect the thought that judging one’s actions and loving that person are at odds, and I think that is an absurd idea.

That is a good point. There is nothing about judging that is inherently destructive to the person judged – except having been judged. If there are additional consequences, that is another issue.

But when I judge it hurts me. It attaches me to something unpleasant in a formal way, and that’s what Jesus is urging us to do. He can we be free of things once we’ve invested our “ego” to presume a label of “sinner” should apply to others.

“Do not judge” is much more a cognitive challenge than “do not punish” or “do not condemn” or sometimes it sounds more like, “do not use certain condemnation language.” My concern is that that last form is closest to what we seem to have watered down “do not judge” to become.

But with “I have guidelines for judging” is different than “I have no desire to judge others because I tasted outside the old wineskins, and saw.” We don’t get the attendant mental and emotional freedom Jesus is suggesting we taste and see, of not judging in the first place. But at least we have the option to explain away our status quo, so as to relieve the dissonance between what the Savior suggests and what we are trained to think. At least the process of forgiveness offers hope to break the cycle. Tough nut to crack, as it were.

 

[christofirst]

Man proposes, God disposes.

When it comes to other people, we can judge, and in some cases we must judge (to keep order in a civil society, for instance), but it seems wise to always remember that we are also fallible. The more removed we are from any situation, the more likely our judgment will miss the mark - and in some cases we may be blind to things right under our nose. There will be things we do not know, but there is nothing outside the scope of God’s knowledge. This is why, in most cases, I leave the judging of others to God.

When I think judgment, I almost always think mercy, probably because I’m in so much need of mercy myself!

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Man proposes, God disposes.

When it comes to other people, we can judge, and in some cases we must judge (to keep order in a civil society, for instance), but it seems wise to always remember that we are also fallible. The more removed we are from any situation, the more likely our judgment will miss the mark - and in some cases we may be blind to things right under our nose. There will be things we do not know, but there is nothing outside the scope of God’s knowledge. This is why, in most cases, I leave the judging of others to God.

When I think judgment, I almost always think mercy, probably because I’m in so much need of mercy myself!

 

[ready]

“Every one, however, whether having an official competency or not, is bound to give the admonition when the sin, committed though it be from ignorance, is hurtful to the offender or a third party or is the occasion of scandal.”

newadvent.org/cathen/04394a.htm

 

[christofirst]

“Every one, however, whether having an official competency or not, is bound to give the admonition when the sin, committed though it be from ignorance, is hurtful to the offender or a third party or is the occasion of scandal.”

newadvent.org/cathen/04394a.htm

Yes, fraternal correction, and many people do seem more than eager to provide this service. Then I read the accounts of the Desert Fathers, and I see:

**Some Fathers questioned Abba Poemen saying, “If we see a brother in the act of committing a sin, do you think that we ought to reprove him?” The old man said to them, “For my part, if I have to go out and I see someone committing a sin, I pass on my way without reproving him.” **

Was Abba Poemen wrong to do this?

And then there’s this:

Abba Paphnutius said, 'When I was walking along the road, I happened to lose my way and found myself near a village and I saw some people who were talking about evil things. So I stood still praying for my sins. Then behold an angel came, holding a sword and he said to me, “Paphnutius, all those who judge their brothers will die by this sword, but because you have not judged, but have humbled yourself before God, saying that you have sinned, your name is written in the book of the living!”'

Now I know the Desert Fathers are not equal to the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church, but I’m curious: Do you think the Desert Fathers got it wrong here?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Yes, fraternal correction, and many people do seem more than eager to provide this service. Then I read the accounts of the Desert Fathers, and I see:

**Some Fathers questioned Abba Poemen saying, “If we see a brother in the act of committing a sin, do you think that we ought to reprove him?” The old man said to them, “For my part, if I have to go out and I see someone committing a sin, I pass on my way without reproving him.” **

Was Abba Poemen wrong to do this?

And then there’s this:

Abba Paphnutius said, 'When I was walking along the road, I happened to lose my way and found myself near a village and I saw some people who were talking about evil things. So I stood still praying for my sins. Then behold an angel came, holding a sword and he said to me, “Paphnutius, all those who judge their brothers will die by this sword, but because you have not judged, but have humbled yourself before God, saying that you have sinned, your name is written in the book of the living!”'

Now I know the Desert Fathers are not equal to the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church, but I’m curious: Do you think the Desert Fathers got it wrong here?

How about this one from a desert father:
1 Cor 1
10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. 11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you. 12 I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to[e] Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 [f]Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I give thanks [to God] that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. 16 (I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.)

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but** to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.**

18 The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”

20 Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 *For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

The Corinthians and Paul.[j] 26 Consider your own calling, brothers. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 Rather, God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, and God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong, 28 and God chose the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something, 29 so that no human being might boast[k] before God. 30 It is due to him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, as well as righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Whoever boasts, should boast in the Lord.”​

*