When is Masturbation not grave matter?

[PennitentMan]

Yes, you all knew this question was coming.

The Cathecism defines Masturbation as a grave matter, but they also make certain allowances.

I also want to make the distinction between grave matter and mortal sin, since mortal sin only occurres if the three conditions are met.

Now, I know that a lot of you will say “always”, but here is what the CCC says:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

I also know that I will probably get reprimanded by some of you saying that I should just be as chaste as possible, and that I’m just looking for a loophole in the system.
Not so. I want to be as chaste a husband as I possible can, but what if I do stumble?
Fact is that if I stumble and we go to a morning Mass the next day, and I don’t receive, my wife will immediately ask what is up, and if that comes out, Oh Boy…I would hurt her really badly possibly to the point of separation. She really takes this seriously, and I do too.

I’m asking this to find out what happens if I do stumble when I am in the situation I’m in. Most of you know the situation, since you have been following all my posts.
I’m worried about the road ahead, and even though I try my best to remain chaste, I do need to think of what would happen in that event.

Honestly, I’m going a but nutty over here from frustration. If the above was just acceptable, all my problems would disappear! Anyway, maybe these are the wishes of a desperate man…

Honestly, will this not be better than to feel the way I do, to feel that gut-wrenching guilt every time an attractive girl walks by, even if I didn’t look at her? (And I work closely with two of those), to be depressed, to be grumpy, to keep all these feelings bottled up inside?
Logically, not Catholically speaking, it’s a no-brainer, but I respect the Church and try to be chaste, but at what cost?

Thanks for the honest feedback

PM.

 

[baltobetsy]

PM, I commend you for your efforts to do the right thing. The truth is, we cannot set these guidelines for you. You know it is always grave matter, but your personal circumstances and trials may reduce your responsibility. Only you and your priest in confession can figure this out.

So go to confession and bring up this exact question and ask under what circumstances FOR YOU this may not be a mortal sin. And what you should do at daily Mass in the event you fall.

God bless you.

Betsy

 

[Lazerlike42]

I haven’t been following your posts at all, I’m sorry. I can only comment on what you have written in this one, but I can do so as a person who seems to have struggled greatly and in some ways to struggle greatly with the very problems you are mentioning, and so as someone with the utmost understanding.

Masturbation is always grave matter. When the catechism speaks of the culpability, it is referring to whether or not an individual is personally culpable before God for something, or whether or not some known or unknown psychological problems or some lack of knowledge or poor pastoral care or any number of other things lessen either the knowledge or deliberate consent of the will necessary. The matter of something refers to the objective nature of the act, the culpability refers to the subjective state of the person. Whether or not a person who has masturbated has committed a mortal sin is a question of many factors specific to the person, but the act itself is always grave.

Unfortunately for what you seem to be hoping for, this doesn’t affect your ability to receive Holy Communion. All persons who know they have committed a grave act must refrain until confession, even if they believe it may not have been a mortal sin.

There seem to be many other issues going on with you, however, some of which I notice in your post. For instance, there is no need to feel guilt when an attractive woman walks by if you have not looked at her. I understand your feeling, however, and I would encourage you to PM me as we may be able to talk about some personal experience that might help you a lot.

 

[junk]

if I stumble and we go to a morning Mass the next day, and I don’t receive, my wife will immediately ask what is up

Probably not helpful, but y’know, you don’t have to confess to your wife… I sympathise with your situation, though. I’ve read a few of your posts and I can see your sincerity and commitment.

Every time you do not receive Communion, it can mean that you have committed an action such as some thought, word or deed that is weighing on your conscience. I don’t know how you could tell your wife that without offending her, but the reasons you do not receive are between you and God. She should know that you are imperfect like all people, but that you are sincerely trying your best to follow God’s will, and that you may sometimes stumble. She doesn’t need to know in what way. I hope the women on this forum could give you some good advice on how to phrase that right.

I admire your strength and your resolve, and I hope others can help you out a bit more.

 

[Brendan]

The CCC only address a reduction in moral culpabilty, NOT in a reduction on the matter of the sin.

Masterbation is ALWAYS grave matter, in Moral Theology terms, it is always a Serious Malum, a moral evil. Culpability referes to Knowledge or Intent.

In the case of a very young person, their might not be the knowledge of the sinfulness of the action, thus age might reduce the culpability.

If a person is sexually addicted, the addiction itself might reduce the culpability ( of subsequent action, NOT the culpabiliy of the initial actions that introduced the addiction)

Another example.

Killing an innocent person is always Grave Matter. But you were driving at the legal speed limit and a person stepped out in front of your car and you struck and killed them, you commited no fault. Yoy are not culpable for the killing.

But that doesn’t mean that Killing an innocent person is no longer Grave Matter.

 

[HailMary]

When is Masturbation not grave matter?

Its always a grave matter, but not a mortal sin if you are addicted and despise what you do.

All mortal sins are grave but not all grave sins are mortal.

If you have been doing it for 10 years, your will is weakened and by definition you did not commit a mortal sin.

 

[PennitentMan]

Thanks for the posts to far.

A lot of you have pointed out a mistake I made in phrasing.

I realise that the act will always be grave matter, I think my question should have been, when is it not a mortal sin? The rest of the post sort of leans that way.

Since I can no longer edit the first post, maybe a Mod can help me change the subject line to When is Masturbation not a mortal sin?

Thanks!

 

[Black_Jaque]

PM

The very fact that you are posting this to the message board reveals that if you do “fall” it was with full knowlege, and full consent of the will. It wasn’t in a flury of passion. You are looking for someone to tell you that it would be OK. It’s not.

As someone pointed out in another post, “your wife is being a spoiled brat.”

Perhaps that pent-up energy is supposed to be spurring you to have a good argument. Or maybe several.

Go have the argument then come back and tell us if you don’t feel better. Just restrain yourself from lashing out with insults, and foul language.

 

[PennitentMan]

PM

The very fact that you are posting this to the message board reveals that if you do “fall” it was with full knowlege, and full consent of the will. It wasn’t in a flury of passion. You are looking for someone to tell you that it would be OK. It’s not.

Yeah, I was seeing the irony in it too.

And I guess, deep down, I am looking for a loophole.

I know my wife, lovely as she is, arguing will do nothing but make it worse…spoilt or not, that is the situation.

I guess I have ask again…is this what life is all about then?
Doesn’t it feel to you all that the Catholic Church seems to box us in?
I’m feeling very helpless, frustrated and dispondent, while Protestant folks don’t seem to be having any of these issues.

It’s also frustrating since I cannot even think of converting back and turing my back on the True Church…but I am feeling like I’m at a dead end.

PM

 

[HailMary]

Yeah, I was seeing the irony in it too.

And I guess, deep down, I am looking for a loophole.

I know my wife, lovely as she is, arguing will do nothing but make it worse…spoilt or not, that is the situation.

I guess I have ask again…is this what life is all about then?
Doesn’t it feel to you all that the Catholic Church seems to box us in?
I’m feeling very helpless, frustrated and dispondent, while Protestant folks don’t seem to be having any of these issues.

It’s also frustrating since I cannot even think of converting back and turing my back on the True Church…but I am feeling like I’m at a dead end.

PM

Ask Mary for help. Trust me, she WILL help.

Consider a retreat focused on this.

 

[PennitentMan]

Ask Mary for help. Trust me, she WILL help.

Consider a retreat focused on this.

I ask her every morning as part of my daily Rosary intentions. I guess Her time is different from our time. I’m trying to trust in the Lord’s time.

PM

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Yeah, I was seeing the irony in it too.

And I guess, deep down, I am looking for a loophole.

I know my wife, lovely as she is, arguing will do nothing but make it worse…spoilt or not, that is the situation.

I guess I have ask again…is this what life is all about then?
Doesn’t it feel to you all that the Catholic Church seems to box us in?
I’m feeling very helpless, frustrated and dispondent, while Protestant folks don’t seem to be having any of these issues.

It’s also frustrating since I cannot even think of converting back and turing my back on the True Church…but I am feeling like I’m at a dead end.

PM

It may seem like Protestants are happier, and it may seem like the Church “boxes Catholics in,” but that is not the truth. True freedom is living in conformity with God will, free of the chains of sin. Sure the struggle with sin can be difficult, but that doesn’t mean it would be better to be oblivious to the sin altogether.

 

[HailMary]

I ask her every morning as part of my daily Rosary intentions. I guess Her time is different from our time. I’m trying to trust in the Lord’s time.

PM

You’re correct, Her time is different than our time because all she knows is the Lord and She goes by His time.

Its not an easy thing to over come. If one has been doing it for X years, it very well might take X amount of years to stop. Whats amazing about this process is while you may be focusing on this specific aspect, having success and failures, if you persevere with God, you will be shocked to find out how much you actually changed after you have conquered this. And I’m not referring to just masturbation, but in all things.

Couple of things I have gathered over the years:

Sex is energy and it is finite. Hence, you lose the ability to love when you masturbate.

Love, by nature, is about giving, and Masturbation, by nature, is about receiving. This causes great wars within ourselves because we are destroying our ability to love.

Prayer and Fasting are great weapons against sexual temptation

Mary is really good at being a Mother. Run to her. She knows the fastest, shortest, and most secure way to our Lord.

Frequent confession and Eucharist.

If you watch porn and masturbate, physically remove the lock off your door or the computer in your room so you at least you can tell the Lord you are serious about this. If it happens in the shower, put an icon somewhere in the bathroom to remind you of the battle. Remember, this is war.

God Bless you.

 

[PennitentMan]

Its not an easy thing to over come. If one has been doing it for X years, it very well might take X amount of years to stop. Whats amazing about this process is while you may be focusing on this specific aspect, having success and failures, if you persevere with God, you will be shocked to find out how much you actually changed after you have conquered this. And I’m not referring to just masturbation, but in all things.

Hi HailMary. Actually I do not masturbate. I haven’t “stumbled” in quite a few years now.
My problem is that in recent time, my situation is such that I can see masturbation as the only way out of where I am right now.
Yeah, It does sound awful saying it like that, but that’s how I see it.

I have a few observations to make to your post below, made in love and from personal experience. Please excuse if I am frank at times.

Couple of things I have gathered over the years:

Sex is energy and it is finite. Hence, you lose the ability to love when you masturbate.

In years past, (Way back) I never once lost the ability to love my wife due to masturbation or anything else. My love for my wife remains intact.
You can definately perform that act without objectifying women. In fact, as it is now, masturbation will probably help me enhance my intimacy with my wife, giving her more pleasure when the act is done, since it would enable me to last a bit longer.

Love, by nature, is about giving, and Masturbation, by nature, is about receiving. This causes great wars within ourselves because we are destroying our ability to love.

Masturbation in my case would be about release. It would be about health concerns. It would be about being a better, more relaxed and focused person/husband/father.

Prayer and Fasting are great weapons against sexual temptation

Very true, and I am against sexual temptation. Lust after a woman is bad, but like I said, once can masturbate without lusting.

Mary is really good at being a Mother. Run to her. She knows the fastest, shortest, and most secure way to our Lord.

Amen, I’ll do that

Frequent confession and Eucharist.

I think you meant this point in concext of someone struggling to give it up, where my situation is actually the reverse I do use those sacraments frequently

God Bless you.

Thank you HailMary for the (name removed by moderator)ut and insight, I will keep on trusting our Lord and Lady for their timing and Will.

PM

 

[CuriousInIL]

---

Unfortunately for what you seem to be hoping for, this doesn’t affect your ability to receive Holy Communion. All persons who know they have committed a grave act must refrain until confession, even if they believe it may not have been a mortal sin.

---

Do you have support for this? I have never understood the rule to be this way.

 

[PennitentMan]

Unfortunately for what you seem to be hoping for, this doesn’t affect your ability to receive Holy Communion. All persons who know they have committed a grave act must refrain until confession, even if they believe it may not have been a mortal sin.

Thanks CuriousInIL for pointing that out to me, I read it but forgot to query this.

As far as I understand, only if you have the stain of a Mortal Sin on your soul, you are not allowed to receive Holy Communion.
Comitting a grave act in itself is not enough reason.
If you are forced to do something grave, you do not perform the act under full consent, so no mortal sin comitted.
All three conditions must be met (Grave matter, Full knowledge and full consent) for a sin to be mortal, and mortal sin is the only thing that prohibits us from receiving our Lord.

From the CCC:
1457 According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.” Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession. Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.

That is my understanding.

 

[Chancellare]

I guess I have ask again…is this what life is all about then?
Doesn’t it feel to you all that the Catholic Church seems to box us in?
I’m feeling very helpless, frustrated and dispondent, while Protestant folks don’t seem to be having any of these issues.

It’s also frustrating since I cannot even think of converting back and turing my back on the True Church…but I am feeling like I’m at a dead end.

PM

I’m as guilty as you in thinking about being boxed in and all that because of our conviction in our faith.

But every time I think of this, I get reminded of JPII’s reasoning in Theology of the Body (not exact paraphrase):
When the Jews asked Christ why he did not subscribe to Mosaic Law allowing divorce, he explained that ORIGINALLY, it was not there (Divorce) because “what God has joined together… and for this reason … and the two shall be as one…” “Rather it is the hardness of your heart that Moses allowed you…”
This means when our desires are not aligned with God’s desires, the law is needed to put in check our wanton desires. That’s where the ‘boxed in’ feeling comes in.
But when we align our feelings and desires to God’s desires for our well being, we are set free from the Law because we don’t need anybody to check if our desires are going haywire…
Therein lies the value of pre-forming our consciences and our ethos as against looking for loopholes to satisfy the desires that need to be reigned in.
At the end of the day, it is a choice between resolving it at the ethos level(your inner heart’s desire) or complying with the ethics (external rules).
I am also struggling to attain this but I guess aren’t many of us?

Hope this helps.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I agree with Chancellare. The Church does not box us in, She simply hands on to us the teaching of God.

What boxes us in is our fallen nature, which tempts us to sin and makes us feel as though we need to. This is what Christ meant when He said the truth would set us free. Before we receive the truth (both as a teaching and as the Truth, Christ Himself in our hearts), we are slaves to sin, doing what it tells us because we believe it to be good. Protestants, for instance, who sometimes feel much at ease may feel at ease, but in a certain sense they are slaves to sin, because they are just doing what their bodies tell them to without the real choice to reject it, because they don’t know it ought to be rejected. This is just like a person that was raised racist and now does racist things - he is a slave to his upbringing because even though he thinks what he is doing is good and he even enjoys it, he does not really have the choice to do otherwise, not realizing it can be either a) good or b) enjoyable.

When we are set free by the truth (and the Truth), then we are free to actually make a choice - do I want to follow path A, or path B? It may be hard, it may even be unpleasent, but we at least know it is a real and valid choice.

Think about the Israelites. When they were freed from Egypt, they were really freed. Nobody would claim they were not really freed. However, many of them wanted to go back to Egypt, back to that life there, because the nother choice - the choice they now, for the first time, had the ability to make - was to hard for them, and it was unpleasent. Nevertheless, they were truly free, and by following that harder choice, they eventually found the promised land - as will you.

 

[StCsDavid]

PennitentMan,

I believe you are sincere; however, I want to challenge you to ask yourself if your wife wasn’t in the equation, how much less anxiety would you be experiencing? Quite often masturbation is a coping mechanism to deal with stress. Your fear of your wife may be contributing to the situation.

The second question I challenge you with is are looking for a technicality to make your grave action not a mortal sin? IMHO, when someone get as twisted up in knots as you are about any issue, I have less reason to believe they are mortally sinning. Christ really isn’t the hard-*** here looking to damn you at the drop of a hat. He looks at your heart and your will. It doesn’t justify the gravity of this offense. What you’re doing is wrong…you know it…and you do it anyway. Why? If the answer is it’s a learned behavior to deal with stress that’s become addictive for you, then the CCC has your answer. Work on a better coping mechanism. If it’s that you just don’t give a damn and it feels good so you do it…then I would worry. Your case really seems to be more of the former.

I would encourage you to consider some couple’s counseling with your wife to work on your communication skills with her. Your kids need to see a strong father figure…not one in fear of his wife. Forgive me if I have offended, but from what I’ve read, that’s the sense I get.

 

[sing]

PennitentMan,

The second question I challenge you with is are looking for a technicality to make your grave action not a mortal sin? IMHO, when someone get as twisted up in knots as you are about any issue, I have less reason to believe they are mortally sinning. Christ really isn’t the hard-*** here looking to damn you at the drop of a hat. He looks at your heart and your will. It doesn’t justify the gravity of this offense. What you’re doing is wrong…you know it…and you do it anyway. Why? If the answer is it’s a learned behavior to deal with stress that’s become addictive for you, then the CCC has your answer. Work on a better coping mechanism. If it’s that you just don’t give a damn and it feels good so you do it…then I would worry. Your case really seems to be more of the former.

He has said that he has not been masturbating. He’s been fighting hard not to. It’s helpful to read what people say.