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StCsDavid
Guest
Oops, I missed that. I read his original message and took it that he was struggling with the problem. Yes, it is helpful to read what people say, and you are most charitable to point that out.
- Status
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MariaGorettiGrl
Guest
Speaking as someone who used to masturbate, I didn’t feel any better about it or “freer” before I knew it was a mortal sin. I always regretted the images I’d allow to get into my head. I’d feel temptation at the worst possible times. When I learned it was a mortal sin, I did feel more apologetic to God, and I did have to worry about getting to confession ASAP. But God doesn’t just make up rules to keep us “boxed in”. Every rule is for our own good. It’s because we’re children that we sometimes think God is trying to keep us from something really neat, like when we thought our parents didn’t want us to have any fun because they wouldn’t let us stay up all night or eat candy for breakfast.
The world tells us we’re missing out. If I would just give in and have sex, I’d be able to get a lot more dates. Of course, I’d also just be used by most of my dates and have a lot more lousy relationships, including divorces, let alone having to deal with STD’s and unexpected pregnancies. Suddenly, spending my Friday nights alone doesn’t seem as bad.
And if I just masturbated with no regret, the world says that’s part of a happy, healthy, normal life. Of course the more you do it, the more you want to do it right away again and again. It’s an insatiable desire. It also begins to desensitize you. You start needing cruder and cruder stimulation. Sitting in your room all afternoon, searching the internet or TV or magazines so you can “pleasure yourself” is not healthy, it’s not normal, and it’s not going to make you happy.
It definitely won’t help your marriage. You’d be making your wife compete with the images in your head, which are unrealistic and sinful.
The devil would always get me with that “You’ll feel so much better if you just do it!”, which I never did and yet I kept falling for. I finally wrote myself a note after falling one time that expressed how down I felt because I gave in. When I would hear that voice telling me I’d enjoy it, I’d read the note and it was undeniable proof that even if it seemed like a “fun” idea in the moment, I wouldn’t really get any pleasure out of it.
It’s a struggle and one that unfortunately sticks with you, but it’s definitely one worth always fighting and never giving up on!
The world tells us we’re missing out. If I would just give in and have sex, I’d be able to get a lot more dates. Of course, I’d also just be used by most of my dates and have a lot more lousy relationships, including divorces, let alone having to deal with STD’s and unexpected pregnancies. Suddenly, spending my Friday nights alone doesn’t seem as bad.
And if I just masturbated with no regret, the world says that’s part of a happy, healthy, normal life. Of course the more you do it, the more you want to do it right away again and again. It’s an insatiable desire. It also begins to desensitize you. You start needing cruder and cruder stimulation. Sitting in your room all afternoon, searching the internet or TV or magazines so you can “pleasure yourself” is not healthy, it’s not normal, and it’s not going to make you happy.
It definitely won’t help your marriage. You’d be making your wife compete with the images in your head, which are unrealistic and sinful.
The devil would always get me with that “You’ll feel so much better if you just do it!”, which I never did and yet I kept falling for. I finally wrote myself a note after falling one time that expressed how down I felt because I gave in. When I would hear that voice telling me I’d enjoy it, I’d read the note and it was undeniable proof that even if it seemed like a “fun” idea in the moment, I wouldn’t really get any pleasure out of it.
It’s a struggle and one that unfortunately sticks with you, but it’s definitely one worth always fighting and never giving up on!
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blessedtoo
Guest
I too would offer a challenge to PMan. I’ve read all the threads you’ve started and all of them, with one exception, have been on the topic of sex. I understand you are having difficulties with your marriage and your wife appears to have a lower drive than you. You have said you have a toddler and that on average you have marital relations once a month. According to you, she is incapable of having any dialogue on this issue without being hurt or becoming angry or feeling guilty.
What stands out for me is your complete preoccupation with the fact that you are not getting enough sexual attention. If you are a young man and early on in your marriage, I can understand why you might be frustrated by this. However, your posts have become more and more desperate, so that now you are questioning if this is “all there is?” It seems as though you are weighing the worth of your marriage against some preconceived idea of what your sexual life should be. People in all states of life go through periods where they may feel unfullfilled but this does not define who we are or what our relationships are about. Marriages go through many, many stages - sometimes couples are flush with romantic feelings and sometimes not. When we allow ourselves to become obsessed because we are not getting what we want, or what we think we are due, we make a temporary problem an impossible obstacle. You are putting an inordinate amount of energy into trying to find a way to get these needs met. What if you can’t? There have been countless times in my life when my needs were left unmet. I’m sure if you reflect on your past, you would say the same. How do we handle that? By obsessing over it and trying to manipulate the situation so that we feel better? Perhaps this is an opportunity for you to refocus your energy and practice not only self-discipline where the body is concerned, but also with the heart and mind.
If your wife is refusing to confront this with you and unwilling to work on it herself, have you considered any programs like Retrouvaille?
retrouvaille.org/
What stands out for me is your complete preoccupation with the fact that you are not getting enough sexual attention. If you are a young man and early on in your marriage, I can understand why you might be frustrated by this. However, your posts have become more and more desperate, so that now you are questioning if this is “all there is?” It seems as though you are weighing the worth of your marriage against some preconceived idea of what your sexual life should be. People in all states of life go through periods where they may feel unfullfilled but this does not define who we are or what our relationships are about. Marriages go through many, many stages - sometimes couples are flush with romantic feelings and sometimes not. When we allow ourselves to become obsessed because we are not getting what we want, or what we think we are due, we make a temporary problem an impossible obstacle. You are putting an inordinate amount of energy into trying to find a way to get these needs met. What if you can’t? There have been countless times in my life when my needs were left unmet. I’m sure if you reflect on your past, you would say the same. How do we handle that? By obsessing over it and trying to manipulate the situation so that we feel better? Perhaps this is an opportunity for you to refocus your energy and practice not only self-discipline where the body is concerned, but also with the heart and mind.
If your wife is refusing to confront this with you and unwilling to work on it herself, have you considered any programs like Retrouvaille?
retrouvaille.org/
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litllulu
Guest
This is an incredible eye opener for marriage. I have had intercourse before marriage, but I do not plan on doind it again until I am married. I will remember this post when the day comes. I am a little too orthodox at times, but let me tell you, being a woman, I love that intimacy. I can not even imagine not having that intimacy in a marriage, I am sure it is more solemn. Your wife must have some really serious issues for not wanting to have intercourse with you. This is no excuse, but have you gained a lot of weight? Or done something to alter her view of you? Do you ask her when you come back from a jog? Do you have good hygeine? Does she? Does she suffer from chronic yeast infections? Maybe there is something physically wrong with her that is embarrassing to her.
Those are good questions to start with. If there is absolutely nothing physical in nature, I only have two words for you!
MARRIAGE COUNSELING
Those are good questions to start with. If there is absolutely nothing physical in nature, I only have two words for you!
MARRIAGE COUNSELING
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PennitentMan
Guest
Good day guys.
Thanks for this honest and heartfelt post, blessedtoo
Your observations may be right about this, and this is the same feedback that I have been getting from a few people: “The problem is not her, the problem is you. Change your mindset and your focus.”
The point is that I am worried.
I am worried about what this is doing to our marriage.
You are right, all my posts start with sex, but it’s not sex per se, it’s intimacy. The problem is about intimacy in marriage…part of the marriage vows…intimacy that is supposed to bring the spouses together in a beautiful and loving way.
Being denied that incimacy is my concern.
Have I expressed this concern to my wife? Oh how I have tried to talk to her about it…
If intimacy is denied on an ongoing basis within marraige…what is the obvious conclusion? I’ll tell you: The couple drift appart. Inadvertantly, they do. If intimacy is not received where it should be, what’s going to happen? It’s going to be searched for elsewhere.
I am starting to understand why (some) people have affairs (men and women)…they are being pushed away.
So, as far as my predicament go.
I have all but exhausted any options of communications with my wife. Be patient, give me time, this feels wrong, I am too tired…the excuses have been coming for over a year now…
And yes, some days I also get thoughts in my head of finding this affection elsewhere. (I dismiss these thoughts with disgust of course)
but what are the alternatives? Affaris, or keeping yourself gratified untill she has her time.
I do not look at porn, I try to be faithful in everything, but something has got to give.
I tried broaching the topic again last night, but this time it was that there is so much pressure…she needs time to get into it and there is no time.
Immediately I see that this is not bringing me anywhere and so I back down, smile and give her support with love.
That’s all I can do. I am trying to be the best husband I can be. That is the reasons for all my posts…not sex, but marital intimacy.
PM
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PennitentMan
Guest
Thanks for your post here too…yeah, intimacy is such an important part of marriage…
Answering your questions are all “no”
Answering your questions are all “no”
Nope, I still fit into my same clothes from 4 years ago.
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PennitentMan
Guest
I also found these interesting posts online at religioustolerance.org/masturba10.htm
The second factor might lessen the severity of the sin so that it not a mortal sin. Here, Catholic theologians have a range of interpretations:
“Father Philip” at Catholic Q and A writes:
“…a careful, prayerful, and thorough reading of the “Catechism” leads us to conclude that masturbation can be a “serious mortal sin”, but we must also admit that the “Catechism” foresees situations in which masturbation may not be ‘a serious mortal sin’.”
“Circumstances that range from ‘affective immaturity’ to the ‘force of acquired habit’ to psychological factors such as anxiety and even to ‘social factors’ can mitigate a person’s moral culpability if she/he performs the objectively disordered act of masturbation. In such a case, the ‘Catechism’ is insistent that masturbation would not be ‘a serious mortal sin’ because of any one of those extenuating reasons.”
“To be sure, neither I nor my colleagues in Catholic Campus Ministry would encourage anybody to masturbate. The teaching of the Church is explicit on this topic, and therefore, we would not encourage something the Church says is ‘disordered’.”
“At the same time, though, faithfully teaching what the Church actually teaches calls me and my colleagues in Catholic Campus Ministry to recognize the Church’s wisdom and God’s grace in saying that masturbation is not always and in every case gravely sinful…”
“As the ‘Catechsim of the Catholic Church’ makes clear, masturbation may not be a ‘mortal sin’ if the extenuating circumstances identified in the “Catechism” are found, by a competent moral guide, who has a well-formed conscience, to be present in the life of one who has masturbated. In such a situation the objectively disordered action of masturbation, while not ‘acceptable,’ can hardly be considered a ‘serious mortal sin’…”
Father John Ruffo takes a much more liberal position:
"The Church’s official position on masturbation: ‘The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.’ That’s a quote from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. "
“Can masturbation be sinful? I think the only time masturbation could be considered seriously sinful is if someone is using this activity to avoid one’s obligations to one’s spouse. Modern moral theologians tell us that masturbation is a normal part of one’s psychosexual development. Most people go through phases of masturbation, during adolescence, for example, individuals separated from their spouses in war time, the elderly, and others in unique situations of life. It’s hoped that individuals not become fixed or stuck in only this form of sexual expression, but rather develop a relationship with another person with whom one can express one’s own sexuality in an appropriate loving and intimate way.”
The second factor might lessen the severity of the sin so that it not a mortal sin. Here, Catholic theologians have a range of interpretations:
“Father Philip” at Catholic Q and A writes:
“…a careful, prayerful, and thorough reading of the “Catechism” leads us to conclude that masturbation can be a “serious mortal sin”, but we must also admit that the “Catechism” foresees situations in which masturbation may not be ‘a serious mortal sin’.”
“Circumstances that range from ‘affective immaturity’ to the ‘force of acquired habit’ to psychological factors such as anxiety and even to ‘social factors’ can mitigate a person’s moral culpability if she/he performs the objectively disordered act of masturbation. In such a case, the ‘Catechism’ is insistent that masturbation would not be ‘a serious mortal sin’ because of any one of those extenuating reasons.”
“To be sure, neither I nor my colleagues in Catholic Campus Ministry would encourage anybody to masturbate. The teaching of the Church is explicit on this topic, and therefore, we would not encourage something the Church says is ‘disordered’.”
“At the same time, though, faithfully teaching what the Church actually teaches calls me and my colleagues in Catholic Campus Ministry to recognize the Church’s wisdom and God’s grace in saying that masturbation is not always and in every case gravely sinful…”
“As the ‘Catechsim of the Catholic Church’ makes clear, masturbation may not be a ‘mortal sin’ if the extenuating circumstances identified in the “Catechism” are found, by a competent moral guide, who has a well-formed conscience, to be present in the life of one who has masturbated. In such a situation the objectively disordered action of masturbation, while not ‘acceptable,’ can hardly be considered a ‘serious mortal sin’…”
Father John Ruffo takes a much more liberal position:
"The Church’s official position on masturbation: ‘The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.’ That’s a quote from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. "
“Can masturbation be sinful? I think the only time masturbation could be considered seriously sinful is if someone is using this activity to avoid one’s obligations to one’s spouse. Modern moral theologians tell us that masturbation is a normal part of one’s psychosexual development. Most people go through phases of masturbation, during adolescence, for example, individuals separated from their spouses in war time, the elderly, and others in unique situations of life. It’s hoped that individuals not become fixed or stuck in only this form of sexual expression, but rather develop a relationship with another person with whom one can express one’s own sexuality in an appropriate loving and intimate way.”
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DallasCatholic
Guest
PMan,
You need to bring these serious issues up to your wife in a safe and controlled setting…that means counseling. It’s apparent that your wife does not realize how important this is to you and how seriously damaging this is to your relationship. A good counselor can help by being an objective mediator and can help get to the root of the problem. True love is about caring for the other person and it is not a one way street. Your wife may have strong reasons for her behavior and choices and until you get these out in the open and deal with them not much will change. Remember, Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. One of the counselors that my wife and I saw always used to say that in any disfunctional situation both sides must be getting something from the relationship or the relationship would end. Sometimes one party might actually enjoy playing the “Martyr” because it makes them feel morally superior. I am NOT saying that is what is going on in your case…just that you really need to evaluate the situation and get help.
I can tell you that after 23 years of marriage I can vouch for the Church’s teachings on sex, birth control and abortion. I know they are right in a fundamental part of my soul. For example, I know that masturbation is damaging to a relationship because it impedes intimacy. I can’t explain why in so many words, I can just look back at my past and see the truth in it. I pray that you will seek God in this and that you and your wife are healed by God’s love.
You need to bring these serious issues up to your wife in a safe and controlled setting…that means counseling. It’s apparent that your wife does not realize how important this is to you and how seriously damaging this is to your relationship. A good counselor can help by being an objective mediator and can help get to the root of the problem. True love is about caring for the other person and it is not a one way street. Your wife may have strong reasons for her behavior and choices and until you get these out in the open and deal with them not much will change. Remember, Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. One of the counselors that my wife and I saw always used to say that in any disfunctional situation both sides must be getting something from the relationship or the relationship would end. Sometimes one party might actually enjoy playing the “Martyr” because it makes them feel morally superior. I am NOT saying that is what is going on in your case…just that you really need to evaluate the situation and get help.
I can tell you that after 23 years of marriage I can vouch for the Church’s teachings on sex, birth control and abortion. I know they are right in a fundamental part of my soul. For example, I know that masturbation is damaging to a relationship because it impedes intimacy. I can’t explain why in so many words, I can just look back at my past and see the truth in it. I pray that you will seek God in this and that you and your wife are healed by God’s love.
E
elvisman
Guest
I’ve know men who have gone to a fertility specialist to find out why their wives weren’t conceiving. The only way to give a “sample” is to masturbate.
Since a couple of them were Catholics, they didn’t pursue artificial or surgical avenues. BUT - BOTH fathered children after they knew what the problem was. They simply avoided things that might have been causing the problem (caffeine, smoking, restrictive clothing, etc.) They also “iced-up”, as it were.
Would this be considered a grave sin?
Since a couple of them were Catholics, they didn’t pursue artificial or surgical avenues. BUT - BOTH fathered children after they knew what the problem was. They simply avoided things that might have been causing the problem (caffeine, smoking, restrictive clothing, etc.) They also “iced-up”, as it were.
Would this be considered a grave sin?
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PennitentMan
Guest
I’m afraid I don’t understand the question…I don’t think I see anything sinful, grave or otherwise. They didn’t persue the actions that was contrary to their beliefs, they found other measures, implimented them and fathered children.
Where does the sin lie in that? Can you elaborate a bit more?
Thanks!
PM
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blessedtoo
Guest
Thanks for recognizing it as such. I do really feel your pain.Thanks for this honest and heartfelt post, blessedtoo
The issue is not who has the problem. Right now, you both do. The issue is who can you change? Clearly not her. And your preoccupation is obviously your issue. Change that and you will find more peace.
“Do not worry about tomorrow. Today’s troubles are enough for the day”. Our Lord’s word say it all.
Intimacy is MANY things, not just sex. I think you are confusing the two issues. You stated in one of your first posts that:
Why would that get you frustrated? Isn’t that enough intimacy for you? Or is it the *wrong kind *of intimacy because it doesn’t result in coitus? Perhaps you need to rethink your definition of intimacy. If what you are trying to achieve is a visceral, emotional and spiritual oneness with your spouse, then this can, in part, be achieved in a multitude of ways. If it’s physical release you are looking for, as in:
then this has nothing to do with your wife. This is all about you and feeling good. BTW: you are not going to suffer health problems by not masturbating. Nice try, though!
First of all, you have said that you are practicing NFP and that on safe days, for the most part, your wife is willing and interested. Being denied, in this case, simply means you are not getting it when and how often you want it. Use words carefully. Being denied means she is purposefully turning you away to hurt you. Is that the case? And you have to stop “catastrophising.” How do you think older couples survive? Men who suffer impotence or have wives who lose their drives post-menopause? What about couples who have health issues that prevent them from having sex? You will never be able to excuse extra-marital activity, or lone activity with this reasoning. Nice try, though!
One year is a blip in our lives. You have made this 52 weeks of your life the watershed event of your marriage. I think you need to do a little growing up. Your marrige is going to last a very long time. You will have to get used to sacrifice.
And where does God fit into your equation? Why are these the only two lame alternatives you can come up with? You don’t even have to look at the faith for more options: My Lord, any secular book on marriage will provide you with other ideas! It’s a very immature approach you are taking. Do you think your reasoning will ever work for your true heart, or with God?
If you are having no success with your wife in this matter, perhaps you should approach her with a formulated plan, rather than a list of complaints. Do some research (on marriage counseling- not on how to remove responsibility for masturbation!). I provided you a link. I am sure others can do the same. Put together a plan for both of you to speak with a professional with a Catholic background. And insist on it. Tell your wife that it is of profound importance to you!
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PennitentMan
Guest
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Orionthehunter
Guest
Everyone here has done a good job of discussing the grave matter and abstaining from Communion. But I don’t think anyone has addressed the dilemma regarding “Fact is that if I stumble and we go to a morning Mass the next day, and I don’t receive, my wife will immediately ask what is up, and if that comes out, Oh Boy…I would hurt her really badly possibly to the point of separation. She really takes this seriously, and I do too.”
It is quite important that you and your wife establish the ground rules that what is between you and God is private unless you decide to share. You should never feel forced to share your private prayers nor matters that are between you and your Confessor.
This is why the seal of the Confessional effectively goes both ways. One is not to discuss the specifics of their confession with another lay person. Why should we then feel required to discuss the subject of a future confession?
Let me give you a personal example:
All of the following are unrelated:
I was
It took yeoman’s effort for me to get her back on track. We needed the house and she needed to select one that met our needs and not be worried that I was about to be fired without discussing with her the nature of my sin.
While not a perfect analogy, we as Americans have 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. It is critical that we as spouses or parents don’t use decisions to abstain from the Eucharist as opportunity to discover wrong-doing or all that will result is we or our children will be wrongly encouraged to just recieve Communion even when they shouldn’t.
It is quite important that you and your wife establish the ground rules that what is between you and God is private unless you decide to share. You should never feel forced to share your private prayers nor matters that are between you and your Confessor.
This is why the seal of the Confessional effectively goes both ways. One is not to discuss the specifics of their confession with another lay person. Why should we then feel required to discuss the subject of a future confession?
Let me give you a personal example:
All of the following are unrelated:
I was
- under alot of stress at work that was going home with me. My wife wanted to talk about it but I insisted that this was my problem and I just needed to work it out myself. I chose not to share what was going on as it affected someone she was close to personally.
- At the same time, we were looking for a larger house which would result in larger mortgage payments.
- Then, at the same time I did not recieve communion as I determined I needed Confession.
It took yeoman’s effort for me to get her back on track. We needed the house and she needed to select one that met our needs and not be worried that I was about to be fired without discussing with her the nature of my sin.
While not a perfect analogy, we as Americans have 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. It is critical that we as spouses or parents don’t use decisions to abstain from the Eucharist as opportunity to discover wrong-doing or all that will result is we or our children will be wrongly encouraged to just recieve Communion even when they shouldn’t.
L
litllulu
Guest
This sounds stupid, but do you have nocturnal emissions? you dont have to answer that, but I am asking if you go without for some time, the body will naturally take care of the “frustration”.
You sound like a great holy man, I hope I can find a husband like you!
You sound like a great holy man, I hope I can find a husband like you!
P
PennitentMan
Guest
Hi there. Fact is that I don’t. It happens extremely infrequently…
Thanks for the nice words, they mean a lot.
PM
C
CuriousInIL
Guest
This is true, important and I agree.
To the extent that you mean this as a restriction on a person that has confessed this isn’t true. One may or may not discuss what they themselves have confessed as they see fit. The seal of confession does not go both ways.
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
I over-reached by using the “seal”. I apologize.
What I tried to communicate, the Sacrament is a private matter between a Confessor and the Penitant. Respect for the privacy of the sacrament is such that Penitants are instructed not to discuss their confesssion in specifics to others. I acknowledge and over-reached that it was a prohibition but that the instruction as a general rule is not to be taken lightly and only done when it serves a great and defined need. Otherwise, what is said out of the Confessional may be taken out of context or used inappropriately by the hearer causing problems for the Confessor.
Let me give an example. I confess to stealing from a business. I tell a person that is something I confessed. The hearer goes to the police. Now the police wants to ask the Priest to confirm putting him in a difficult position that should have been avoided.
P
PennitentMan
Guest
But in my case not telling her will cause her to immediately suspect that I did something sexual by nature, and am in a state of mortal sin, and what she will suspect I did will most probably far outweigh the actual act.
So, it would take such effort just to put her at ease…
I’m a very firm believer in “Ignorance in Bliss”
L
Lazerlike42
Guest
I think that this is an issue that really requires things more deep than just dealing with the possible masturbation. As someone else has said, you have to really deal with these things with your wife - for your sake, and for her soul, too.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth or make a mistaken statement, but it seems that your wife can be a very judgmental person in some ways. Of course she wants you to be living in Grace and wants what is best for you, but she seems to… almost at the same time be too ‘harsh,’ not recognizing that you are human and have failings. She no doubt struggles with her own sins, maybe not of the sexual nature, but of other ones, and you should no more be condemned for your struggles than she should for hers.
As husband and wife, you guys need to grow closer to God together, growing to be mutually supportive of each other and encouraging. When one of you falls, the other should help lift the one up, not come down on them. I know this is hard, and there is emotional pain for her, as well, when there is a sexual sin on your part, but this really is something you guys need to work out, maybe even with your priest.
P
PennitentMan
Guest
You hit the nail on the head here, thank you.
- Status