When is Masturbation not grave matter?

[LaSalle]

Hi there gang.

I wanted to let you all know that last night we consumated our marriage again!
Oh how wonderful and intimate it was, the closeness I felt to my wife, was amazing, really what I’'ve been yearning for.

Thank you all for your prayers for me and her so far, it really helped!

This is a good first step forward for us, thank you again!

PM

Not being rude or anything but … that’s March settled?

What’s the progress on the counselling proposal?

 

[Mimi]

I ask her every morning as part of my daily Rosary intentions. I guess Her time is different from our time. I’m trying to trust in the Lord’s time.

PM

It might be helpful to think of (wanting to self-stimulate, or SS) like a recovering gambling addict might.

Avoid the near occasion of sin:
Try to remove yourself from situations in which might lead you to think about SS. A gambler shouldn’t drive near the casino if he can help it; take an alternate route.

If you are surfing TV channels, and come upon a steamy scene or women’s undergarment commercial, zoom past, say a prayer to St. Maria Goretti for help, and turn off the darn Idiot Box.

It might be an hour by hour or even minute by minute struggle. Think of your DW and how much she’d be hurt (maybe betrayed) if you did SS. God knows your struggles.

I think just about everyone, regardless of age or marital status has experienced this problem from time to time.

Blessed Lent,
Mimi

 

[PennitentMan]

Not being rude or anything but … that’s March settled?

What’s the progress on the counselling proposal?

It is slow going, as you all know the subject is a touchy one.
But we are speaking of looking at spiritual direction, and I am going to start looking for a priest in our diocese that we can go see.

Thanks for asking

PM

 

[Black_Jaque]

I know my wife, lovely as she is, arguing will do nothing but make it worse…spoilt or not, that is the situation.

I guess I have ask again…is this what life is all about then?
Doesn’t it feel to you all that the Catholic Church seems to box us in?
I’m feeling very helpless, frustrated and dispondent, while Protestant folks don’t seem to be having any of these issues.

It’s also frustrating since I cannot even think of converting back and turing my back on the True Church…but I am feeling like I’m at a dead end.

Well I’m glad you two at least show some signs of improvement. Hopefully, things will continue to improve from here without much need to post back here, and without further temptation to mortal sin.

However, sometime problems like this aren’t simply settled one night. If you find yourself back in the same situation again you need to understand my advice.

Don’t get me wrong. I would never say to expect that arguing would “woo her to bed”. But the arguing potentially will have two affects. It may relieve some of your temptation to mortal sin. And it will get you out of this “dead end” feeling. It won’t immediately lead to intercourse.

Don’t be afraid to argue. My wife and I have shared some of the most tender moments after an arguement. I think it helps her to see that I am passionate about maintain our relationship. I think after several arguements it helps her to see that even after an arguement, I’ll still be there. The arguments are becoming “less scary”.

Just accept that by arguing you’ll make her mad. Then she’ll refuse intimacy because she’s mad. But after some time, you’ll gain her respect precisely because you are willing to risk abstaining because she’s mad in order to stand for your marriage.

A wife just won’t respect a man who’s willing to sell out his principles just to get sex. A wife will respect, and possibly be more attracted to, a man who will forego sexual gratification in order to stand for his principles. It gets a bit convoluted when that principle in question is the sacredness and holiness of the physical union.

 

[SHEMP]

How does one make a perfect act of contrition?
It seems almost impossible…

From The Catechism:

VII. The Acts of the Penitent

1450
"Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction."49
Contrition

**1451 **
Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

**1452 **
When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

**1453 **
The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

 

[Mirdath]

Yes!!! Yayayay! I’ve been kinda following your story for a little while, as you know, and I am so so happy to hear the news! For all your doubts and fears, I never once thought you were anything but madly in love with your wife – and hopefully her fears and shyness will diminish too, as you become more comfortable together again.

Of course, since I am not Catholic, I do not see masturbation as a sin per se, but it can certainly become a vice, and one that distances you from others, particularly those you love intimately. But chastity is a state of mind even more than of the body, or such is my experience (don’t laugh, non-Catholics practice chastity too, really…well, some of us, er…you know what I’m saying!) And you ARE married and even Paul said it’s better to marry than burn, etc etc (whatta prude, eh?) So good for you both! Yeah, some counseling may well be in order, but sounds like you’ve got things going down the right track already. I know you know to be gentle with her, and hopefully she’ll learn to be gentle with you too – well,. not TOO gentle, but again, you know what I mean.

 

[PennitentMan]

Thanks, but don’t pop the champaigne yet…here’s what I wrote yesterday morning on the Family Life board:

O I have tried.

I have tried subtle, as I was councelling searching06 to do, I have tried direct approach, [edit - also arguing], nothing seems to work.

For instance, this weekend, we spoke about it again and all seemed good, but when we got intimact later, things have not changed…
We had spoken about my and our feelings, she is well aware of how I feel. I even tried to help her be more open/spontanteous [edit-during our intimacy, to get her to enoy herself, but I was rejected in my attepmpts], call it what you will, but nope. She remained closed/shy/scared, I do not know anymore, but honestly, it’s like doing the bare minimum to get the job done. That’s how I feel.

We have spoken about this so many times that every time I bring up the topic now, it’s like “Oh, that again? Honestly…it’s normal, just accept it. Nothing’s wrong.”

She either denies it or gets extremely defensive and we end up fighting…and not matter if we fight, the outcome is still the same…3 minutes of unfulfulled intercourse…

I’m done talking…

So, there you have it. It seems like the talking is only good in theory, nd when it comes time to put it into practice, same old, same old.

What more can I do with someone who doesn’t listen?
PM

 

[Ramalama]

PM, I’ll pray for you. I pray for His help every morning and thank him every evening. It’s helped me to keep away from pornography and not to masturbate.

In answer to your original question, I think if you or I masturbated now it would be a mortal sin unless someone was pointing a gun at our head. We both know it’s a mortal sin. I think about dying during masturbating and spending an eternity in hell. That sure puts a downer on the mood!

I also hung my rosary beads on my computer monitor. That keeps me off the bad sites more than any internet blocker would! You might also consider staring at a crucifux until the mood passes.

Just remember, it’s a DDD.* Good luck. Pray for me, I’ll pray for you.

• DDD = Don’t Do Dat

 

[PennitentMan]

PM, I’ll pray for you. I pray for His help every morning and thank him every evening. It’s helped me to keep away from pornography and not to masturbate.

In answer to your original question, I think if you or I masturbated now it would be a mortal sin unless someone was pointing a gun at our head. We both know it’s a mortal sin. I think about dying during masturbating and spending an eternity in hell. That sure puts a downer on the mood!

I also hung my rosary beads on my computer monitor. That keeps me off the bad sites more than any internet blocker would! You might also consider staring at a crucifux until the mood passes.

Just remember, it’s a DDD.* Good luck. Pray for me, I’ll pray for you.

• DDD = Don’t Do Dat

Thank you very much for your prayers Ramalama I do appreciate them so much!

As I’m sure you know, some days are better than others. But some days are so frustrating, adding to that because I understand it’s a mortal sin, so I do not dare do it for fear of hell. I think the same as you do…what if I die during?..

Now, I have tried every option and there is nothing I can do. Nothing.
I understand the value of chastity and I think there is great value in suffering for Christ, but I cannot get myself to suffer gladly yet.

It’s something I need to be working on and tried all through Lent to get this right, but I’m not there yet.
I just feel like there will be perpetual frustration in this area of my life.

And like I said before, if one had a vow of celebacy, things would be different, but I have to live with the love of my live each day, watch her sleep, dress, shower, etc, but no touching…it’s torture.

I dearly wish that I could just get it out of my system by masturbating, (this feelnig is probably a sin in itself) but I know that there is no way to do it. I’m feeling like I’m in a catch 22.

So, the only thing for me to do is pray that I’ll accept this and do so with a happy heart.

I’m working on it…

 

[AndyF]

PennitentMan:

The point of this Dogmatic addition is to allow for some recognition of the difficulty and assist people who make an effort to better their situation. It doesn’t remove the culpability for those who do nothing for themselves, neither is it a blanket permission.

How about setting up milestones.?

Start on Sunday as you state. Nothing on Sunday, never and that is never on the Lord’s day. From that ask the Lord for strength of Sunday’s graces to handle Monday. Start saying the Rosary every day for help and go to confession often.

Work your way through the days to try to have all accumulated urges arrive on the day of the most likely intimate relation with your wife. Test what works for you. (Not always easy of course, but eventually the day will not matter.)

Other: Shut out outside stimulus ie: TV Sex and occasions of stimulation of the senses. Channel these to a focus on your wife’s charms, tell her how much you find her attractive,etc. I think you get what I mean.

M2C

AndyF

 

[PennitentMan]

PennitentMan:

The point of this Dogmatic addition is to allow for some recognition of the difficulty and assist people who make an effort to better their situation. It doesn’t remove the culpability for those who do nothing for themselves, neither is it a blanket permission.

How about setting up milestones.?

Start on Sunday as you state. Nothing on Sunday, never and that is never on the Lord’s day. From that ask the Lord for strength of Sunday’s graces to handle Monday. Start saying the Rosary every day for help and go to confession often.

Work your way through the days to try to have all accumulated urges arrive on the day of the most likely intimate relation with your wife. Test what works for you. (Not always easy of course, but eventually the day will not matter.)

Other: Shut out outside stimulus ie: TV Sex and occasions of stimulation of the senses. Channel these to a focus on your wife’s charms, tell her how much you find her attractive,etc. I think you get what I mean.

M2C

AndyF

Thank you Andy for the post.

Just to clarify, I do not masturbate. I gave up that when I became Catholic and I saw the Church’s teachings on it. I have learnt to control my urges and inclinations and I feel I have it under control.

However, the reason for this thread is that my wife is not at all responsice to intimacy. Very few and far between and even when it happens, it’s only a chore and very unfulfilling. I have expored all options open to me, as many others here iwll testify to, so I was exploring to see if there maby something in masturbation to help.
My intentions were to explore the second part of the CCC’s paragraph on it, to see if for me (and many other catholic men in my situation) there may be a way to use this and remain within God’s will.
See, with Celebacy, you have made the descicion and vowed to remain celebate. We, on the other hand are called to be intimate with our wifes, we yearn for their intimacy, but we are denied it. On top of that we live with the source of our love, affection and desires every day, we kiss them, love them, hug them, snuggle them, see them naked, but we are denied the sharing of marital relations.

I was under the impression that maybe the “Emotional state” or “Stresses” mentioned in this paragraph would help praciticing Catholic men to find some form of relief. If done without fantasizing, of course, (Hey, they trust us with beer not to get blind drunk, so my reasoning extended to this). Masturbation could be used as a way to remain faithful to one’s soupce rather than to turn to pornography, or adultery or affairs whilst the wife is denying the husband…

But, alas, all possible doors have been shut to help the Catholic man in this position. I spoke to many preists about this, and their responses varied…but in the end, the only councilling is Pray. Well we do that. But the situation still remains.

That is my situation.

Now all I can do is work on my self-denial skills…

 

[AndyF]

PennitentMan:

I have not been following your previous posts, so I am unfamiliar with your case.

Now I understand the situation, and yours is not unlike mine in a way. We have both become somewhat wanting in the hormone department, our libidoes near extinction. Something my doctor told me I should expect at my age. But I always expected to perform as usual.

We are mostly cuddlers now, and we never lost the teasing and poking and all the rest and that seems to be taking over from frequent intimacy. There is a change in us of priorities, first from my wife, and unexpectantly lately from myself.

Have you tried candlelight dinners out or reliving those days you were more romantically involved? Maybe some old haunts would help? Another consideration is maybe she is content in her way? You don’t want to place extra burdens on her if she is OK with the situation. Refraining may be the option to go. It may seem insurmountable to start but the body gets used to it they say, and you can always reorient yourself to some activity.

Good luck.

AndyF

 

[PennitentMan]

Have you tried candlelight dinners out or reliving those days you were more romantically involved? Maybe some old haunts would help?

Been there try it regularly

Another consideration is maybe she is content in her way? You don’t want to place extra burdens on her if she is OK with the situation. Refraining may be the option to go. It may seem insurmountable to start but the body gets used to it they say, and you can always reorient yourself to some activity.

Good luck.

AndyF

That seems to be the problem. She is happy the way things are and doesn’t want to change.

It seems unfair that one spouse is happy, the other has to suffer and just accept his suffering.

This is my problem. Talking and talking and talking, she still thinks all is good…
And seeking all avenues of help leaves me with…
If the wife doesn’t change, then accept it.

I’m following the Theology of the Body physosophy, I respect and love my wife, I don’t just want sex. I want to be intimate with her. I want to show her my love and show her my affection. I want to show her how much she means to me. I want her to show me that she still loves me. I want her to show me that she wants to share herself with me.

It’s not about sex at all…totally in line with Pope JPII and Christopher West…and I find it very disturbing that the common attitude out there (not yours, but people I have spoken to) is that you I just accept it.

I pray for my wife, I really do and in the mean time I struggle though the temptations that buffet me daily during this time…

 

[searching06]

Hey PM, we’re in the same boat. We’ve been in the same threads; I just happened to get linked to this area and saw your log in name. I struggle, I do fall, I fight on, I worry extremely about how things have developed in life and how to change them, and keep fighting and keep praying.

I read through a lot of this; wonderful posts by many; taking the advice on prayer, working towards fasting; I’ll take all the help I can get.

But I found it sanctimonious as h**l, I guess, lacking a better word, for whoever said if you fall, it is willful, or something along those lines. Glad to hear someone out there is darn near perfect. But for the rest of us, we’re not.

I appreciate the honesty of whoever else said they struggle with this, though they don’t now. God bless you.

 

[PennitentMan]

But I found it sanctimonious as h**l, I guess, lacking a better word, for whoever said if you fall, it is willful, or something along those lines. Glad to hear someone out there is darn near perfect. But for the rest of us, we’re not.

You know this is exactly the point of this thread…at what point do people like us get some slack given to us…
I think that question got lost along the way, basically the answer I got was…as soon as you know it’s grave, there’s no escape the mortal sin.

I was really thinking locically that situations like these are in line with that second seciotn of the masturbation paragraph of the CCC where they cite stresses and anxieties…or even if you want to reason it to the extreme, one can ask the question:
Are all 3 points met for this to be mortal?
Grave matter - yes, as per Church definition
Full knowledge - Yes, since we are made aware of it by reading the CCC and posting here.
Full consent - ??? Maybe this situation we find ourselves in are enough for us not to be held accountable to this point? I don’t know.
People will most probably come down on me hard for this one, but honestly, no one who could help me, wanted to acknowlegde this point…except one priest who alluded to this on e-mail, but I couldn’t get another response out of him to follow up this thoughts…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

When is Masturbation a grave matter?

**Always. **The CCC quote pertains to the subjective elements which MAY (but not necessarily) reduce culpability. Nonetheless, it does not make it no longer a grave sin. A reduction in voluntariness reduces a mortal sin to a venial sin, and ONLY when it has no voluntariness at all, is an act NOT a sin (rare).

 

[InTheWilderness]

As someone who struggles with many things, and has often tried to reason their own way into thinking something was OK, let me say everything you have written seems like something from one of my own internal debates (though the circumstances are totally different).

I keep looking for some easy way out, but the easy way isn’t the Christian way. The hard way is the right way. I don’t always follow it, but at some level I recognize the truth of that.

It seems like you also know, at some level, the answers to your own questions. You just don’t like them, and you may not know quite how to live them. That is the case with me at times.

To the poster that said to refrain from communion after a grave act, I didn’t realize that was the norm. I knew we should not receive in the case of mortal sin, but I did not realize that a grave act was the standard. That actually makes things a bit simpler in most cases, less risk of self deception regarding the other conditions, and thus less risk of an unintentionally sacrilegious act.

Every day is a struggle of some sort, at least on the days I make an attempt to fight the good fight. The only easy days are the ones where I give up and give in to temptation.

 

[PennitentMan]

It seems like you also know, at some level, the answers to your own questions. You just don’t like them, and you may not know quite how to live them.

I know the answers to the questions I post here.
And yes you are right, I don’t like them…but I think it goes deeper than just wanting my way.
I think it’s an area that the Church has either not thought through enough, or has, but lack the understanding of marraige, or has and do understand marraige, but know they cannot change their doctrine so they ignore it…

I’m striving to understand that men in our situation is left with no option.
Priests acknowledge that they either don’t know of this situation, or that they are aware of it and they have many guys talking to them about this, and that there is nothing to do but try to convince the wife to talk or get councilling.

Well, we are trying our best. We are struggling, but being put through this type of stress and an anxiety is not really acknowledged fully.

I know that it would apways be a sin, but at what point, as per my OP, does mortal become venial due to extenuating circumstances?

I’ll never get an answer that I’ll be satisfied with, I know that. The Church will never listen to little ol’ me.

I’ll honour their teachings and withold myself from masturbation.

I’ll do it because I love Christ. But I don’t understand…

 

[InTheWilderness]

There are many who find themselves, either by choice, or by circumstances beyond their control, in a situation that requires chastity.

In marriage there is that better or worse bit, and I think it is the unexpected “for worse” that provides the real opportunity for marital fidelity. I say this as someone who has never been married, but who has seen a lot of other people wind up in versions of “worse” that they would have never dreamed of.

If you are able to follow the teachings of the church, then you must do so.

I would consider it a great blessing in my position if I thought I was at a point that I could hold fast to the teachings of the church in these matters. I do not yet think I have reached that point. Perhaps I sell myself short. Yet, despite the fact I stumble and fall, in more ways and on more occasions than I wish to admit, I must still get back up and try to get on the right path.

In a certain since it is impossible for us as humans to stay in one place. We are either advancing or retreating, turning toward heaven, or toward hell. If you are living in accordance with the teaching of the church in this regard, and you allow yourself to indulge, then you have started a journey going the wrong way.

If you are familiar with compound interest, then you are aware of the sort of danger even allowing an occasional indulgence can have. Pretty soon it would not be just a once a month thing, but weekly, then daily, then eventually a habit beyond reasonable control.

In a certain sense, by reaching the point you appear to be at, you are at the top of a high summit. Your back is to a steep drop, you face a steep road ahead. If you take even a small step back, you may slide much farther down than you intended to, and you will have lost much in the process.

Me, I am somewhere down below, on loose and uneven ground, sliding back by at least two steps for every three I take forward.

I suspect the road gets every steeper and the path ever narrower as we strive toward the summit.

I can only imagine the effort required for progress in your position. It would be virtually heroic. Yet, aren’t we all called to a heroic struggle in this life?

 

[searching06]

You know this is exactly the point of this thread…at what point do people like us get some slack given to us…
I think that question got lost along the way, basically the answer I got was…as soon as you know it’s grave, there’s no escape the mortal sin.

I was really thinking locically that situations like these are in line with that second seciotn of the masturbation paragraph of the CCC where they cite stresses and anxieties…or even if you want to reason it to the extreme, one can ask the question:
Are all 3 points met for this to be mortal?
Grave matter - yes, as per Church definition
Full knowledge - Yes, since we are made aware of it by reading the CCC and posting here.
Full consent - ??? Maybe this situation we find ourselves in are enough for us not to be held accountable to this point? I don’t know.
People will most probably come down on me hard for this one, but honestly, no one who could help me, wanted to acknowlegde this point…except one priest who alluded to this on e-mail, but I couldn’t get another response out of him to follow up this thoughts…

The hard part, friend, is there is no slack. Can’t really be, can there? Because then the Church condones sin, kind of like the discussions we had in the NFP threads.

I’ve spoken with various priests at confession, especially tied into the lack of sex with my wife. Doesn’t take away the “grave” part, which just always sounds like we’re going to hell anyway, but I’ve also been told not to be too hard on myself. But I always am, even if just from being emotionally frustrated from trying to make sense, or “find a loophole”, or trying to understand as a human male why Church teachings are what they are.

Couple of things come to mind. Actually not trying to make sense of it, believe it or not. It doesn’t in the normal human sense; it is through prayer I will have to come to understand. As for “finding the loophole” comments from someone earlier, I think it is not so much wanting a loophole for it to be OK as much as it is not wanting to feel so absolutely guilt ridden if one falls off the wagon. The fact that you are asking the questions and fighting the good fight does not mean you just plan to give in either, as it seems someone alluded too earlier.

The best advice a very spiritual priest told me was to say “no” to temptation, but one day, one hour, at a time. Then make it two, hours or days. I have to admit that it sounds like you have a tougher time in some areas. But we are of like mind and situation.