When is NFP licit?

[Texas_Roofer]

We are using NFP to try and get pregnant.

:clapping: :dancing: :extrahappy: We better save a little celebration for when the baby comes

 

[b_ulmen]

NFP involves abstaining from marital relations during times when it’s most likely a pregnancy could happen. But it does not eliminate the possibilty (evidenced by our youngest son). Abstaining from marital relations is not a sin, thus NFP is not either. imho

 

[Red_Meg]

afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i7iy5b3DJryFJxuwzhzb224A4tRQ

Pope Benedict says:

The 81-year-old pope’s message Friday to a seminar on the encyclical also reaffirmed that the rhythm method is an acceptable form of contraception for couples in “dire circumstances” who need to space their children.

Dire circumstances. Dire circumstances. Dire circumstances.

The citation struck me as suspicious, since I’ve never heard “dire circumstances” (or your extreme examples of limb-amputated husband or wife on category x medication) as the criteria for just use of NFP. Typical language from Humanae Vitae is “justa causa” or “just cause.”

I went to the Vatican website to see the official translation (as opposed to Google-agenda-driven. evidenced by the term “rhythm method”) and found this:

It is true, moreover, that serious circumstances may develop in the couple’s growth which make it prudent to space out births or even to suspend them. And it is here that knowledge of the natural rhythms of the woman’s fertility becomes important for the couple’s life. The methods of observation which enable the couple to determine the periods of fertility permit them to administer what the Creator has wisely inscribed in human nature without interfering with the integral significance of sexual giving. In this way spouses, respecting the full truth of their love, will be able to modulate its expression in conformity with these rhythms without taking anything from the totality of the gift of self that union in the flesh expresses. Obviously, this requires maturity in love which is not instantly acquired but involves dialogue and reciprocal listening, as well as a special mastery of the sexual impulse in a journey of growth in virtue.

Given the full context of what His Holiness is saying here, in a “message” rather than some kind of encyclical or apostolic exhortation, I really can’t see reading it as “NFP may only be used when the wife will be killed by the pregnancy or the husband is permanently incapable of supporting the family.”

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but my general sense of when it’s licit to use NFP falls somewhere higher than the too-trivial “I can’t fit a carseat in my Porsche” and quite a bit lower than the blindingly-obvious “Having a baby may do irreparable damage to my kidneys.” It’s a balancing act between generosity and prudence.

Margaret

 

[RobertLGarrett]

The citation struck me as suspicious, since I’ve never heard “dire circumstances” (or your extreme examples of limb-amputated husband or wife on category x medication) as the criteria for just use of NFP. Typical language from Humanae Vitae is “justa causa” or “just cause.”

I went to the Vatican website to see the official translation (as opposed to Google-agenda-driven. evidenced by the term “rhythm method”) and found this:

Given the full context of what His Holiness is saying here, in a “message” rather than some kind of encyclical or apostolic exhortation, I really can’t see reading it as “NFP may only be used when the wife will be killed by the pregnancy or the husband is permanently incapable of supporting the family.”

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but my general sense of when it’s licit to use NFP falls somewhere higher than the too-trivial “I can’t fit a carseat in my Porsche” and quite a bit lower than the blindingly-obvious “Having a baby may do irreparable damage to my kidneys.” It’s a balancing act between generosity and prudence.

Margaret

I think that is well said Margaret. From me, you get four out of five thumbs up:

BTW…I’ve seen the “back seats” in a Porsche. A car seat is probably all you could fit in there. They don’t call them “amputee seats” for nothing.

 

[StAnastasia]

God commanded us to go forth and multiply - not use a leftist notion of “sustainable” population.

With any luck, we can get rid of all other animals in the world, convert every square foot to corn production, and fit a trillion people on the planet.

 

[mpi]

With any luck, we can get rid of all other animals in the world, convert every square foot to corn production, and fit a trillion people on the planet.

What a blessing a trillion people would be! It is good to hear from someone who is as inspired by God’s Commandment to “be fruitful and multiply”.

Not sure about that corn and animals business you threw in your post though.

 

[StAnastasia]

Not sure about that corn and animals business you threw in your post though.

Sustaining a population of a trillion Homo sapiens requires a huge amount of food. Humans will not be able to tolerate competition for agricultural space from any other species, so we will have to eliminate them. Whether there is sufficient potable water to support one trillion humans is an open question.

 

[StAnastasia]

Sustaining a population of a trillion Homo sapiens requires a huge amount of food. Humans will not be able to tolerate competition for agricultural space from any other species, so we will have to eliminate them. Whether there is sufficient potable water to support one trillion humans is an open question.

Of course, when all the agricultural space is taken up, we will reach zero population growth, as excess human population above carrying capacity will be trimmed by starvation.

 

[mpi]

Of course, when all the agricultural space is taken up, we will reach zero population growth, as excess human population above carrying capacity will be trimmed by starvation.

“Carrying capacity” is a concept loved by those who embrace the culture of death. I suggest you read the works of Julian Simon or one of the other prominent economists/scientists who have debunked such concepts.

 

[StAnastasia]

“Carrying capacity” is a concept loved by those who embrace the culture of death. I suggest you read the works of Julian Simon or one of the other prominent economists/scientists who have debunked such concepts.

“Carrying capacity” refers to the maximum number of organisms of a species that can be supported in a given environment. It is a certainty that the earth is finite, and therefore that the number of humans it supports is finite as well. When the number of humans exceeds the capacity of the earth to support them with food and water, the excess humans will die off, and we will have arrived at ZPG.

 

[Red_Beard]

Mpi,
The the to remember, is to avoid extremes. We are exhorted to be both generous and prudent. Your argument is that NFP users are masking selfishness in the name of “prudence.” That may be. It does not mean that we should be “generous” in cooperating with the gift of life when we do not have what it takes to form the minds, hearts, and consciences of these children. We must be responsible and prudent with our gifts.

The history of the Church is strewn with the bodies of those who went to extremes.

I think that prayer is necessary with discerning each month whether you can accept the invitation to participate in the creation of a new life.

All this being said, I think the population trends of the U.S. and western Europe are due more to contraception and abortion, than they are to abusive NFP users.

God bless,
Red Beard

 

[Red_Beard]

Sirach
Chapter 16
1 Desire not a brood of worthless children, nor rejoice in wicked offspring.
2 Many though they be, exult not in them if they have not the fear of the LORD.
3 Count not on their length of life, have no hope in their future. For one can be better than a thousand; rather die childless than have godless children!

In this article, the author translates it “just cause” instead of "dire."catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea2.asp

 

[mpi]

Sirach
Chapter 16
1 Desire not a brood of worthless children, nor rejoice in wicked offspring.
2 Many though they be, exult not in them if they have not the fear of the LORD.
3 Count not on their length of life, have no hope in their future. For one can be better than a thousand; rather die childless than have godless children!

In this article, the author translates it “just cause” instead of "dire."catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea2.asp

Behold, children are a gift of the LORD,
The fruit of the womb is a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior,
So are the children of one’s youth.
How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them;
They will not be ashamed
When they speak with their enemies in the gate.

Psalm 127:3-5 (NASB)

I also think that be fruitful and multiply is mentioned 6 times in Genesis.

You talk about extremes. The extreme is a society that has a birth rate lower than any society in history.

Don’t get caught up in moral relativism. People feel OK doing immoral behaviour if “everybody else is doing it”. The rejection of life by Western Catholics is immoral, end of story.

You say the problem is ABC and abortion, not improper use of NFP. I say many Catholics practicing NFP bring their “culture of death” attitude to it. It is not licit based on their motivations. Any objective analysis would say that any group with a birth rate below replacement level is demented - what does that say about the approx. 1.5 TFR rate of Western Catholics (2.1 being replacement level).

 

[Red_Beard]

You talk about extremes. The extreme is a society that has a birth rate lower than any society in history.

This isn’t technically correct, but I agree with the sentiment.

Don’t get caught up in moral relativism. People feel OK doing immoral behaviour if “everybody else is doing it”. The rejection of life by Western Catholics is immoral, end of story.

As far as I know, I haven’t made such an argument.

You say the problem is ABC and abortion, not improper use of NFP. I say many Catholics practicing NFP bring their “culture of death” attitude to it. It is not licit based on their motivations.

I know quite a few Catholics who practice NFP. I know none that practice it with a “culture of death” attitude. Do you know any who do to back up your claim?

In the grand scheme of things, I agree that NFP can be abused. I doubt that such abuse is widespread because NFP is hard and contraception is easy. If your end is to frustrate the creative will of God, then contraception is an immeasurably more practical way to do so.

You have no stats on those who use NFP. Neither do I. Drat.

Any objective analysis would say that any group with a birth rate below replacement level is demented - what does that say about the approx. 1.5 TFR rate of Western Catholics (2.1 being replacement level).

I agree.

~ Red Beard

 

[StAnastasia]

I also think that be fruitful and multiply is mentioned 6 times in Genesis…You talk about extremes. The extreme is a society that has a birth rate lower than any society in history.

“Be fruitful and multiply” made demographic sense when it was written, when the Hebrew people of the Ancient Near East were a tiny minority ground between the millstones of the political juggernauts of Egypt, Babylon, and Assyria. With over 6.7 billion people on earth now, we have done quite well in the multiplying department. With infant mortality rates dropping it’s no surprise that the birthrate is declining as well.

 

[PaulinVA]

I also think that be fruitful and multiply is mentioned 6 times in Genesis.

You say the problem is ABC and abortion, not improper use of NFP. I say many Catholics practicing NFP bring their “culture of death” attitude to it. It is not licit based on their motivations. Any objective analysis would say that any group with a birth rate below replacement level is demented - what does that say about the approx. 1.5 TFR rate of Western Catholics (2.1 being replacement level).

I believe you are mistaken, and are unwilling to listen to anyone who holds an opinion opposite of yours.

The Lord did not tell me to be fruitful and multiply. Really. I agreed to accept children as they came, in my wedding vows. I have.

As for being demented - your generous use of hyperbole doesn’t obscure your close mindedness and judgmentalism.

Sorry if that is harsh, but come on. Listen a little.

 

[StAnastasia]

The Lord did not tell me to be fruitful and multiply. Really. I agreed to accept children as they came, in my wedding vows. I have. As for being demented - your generous use of hyperbole doesn’t obscure your close mindedness and judgmentalism. Sorry if that is harsh, but come on. Listen a little.

PaulinVA, what is the minimum number of children a couple must generate in order to escape dementia or not be guilty of facilitating the “culture of death”?

StAnastasia

 

[mpi]

PaulinVA, what is the minimum number of children a couple must generate in order to escape dementia or not be guilty of facilitating the “culture of death”?

StAnastasia

Any society structured such that the TFR is less than 2.1 is demented. The Western world is demented. The TFR of Catholics is not even higher than the average of society as a whole. Western Catholics as a group are demented - many individual Catholics are not demented, but most are demented.

 

[mpi]

From HV:

If, then, there are serious motives to space out births, which derive from the physical or psychological conditions of husband and wife, or from external conditions, the Church teaches that it is then licit to take into account the natural rhythms immanent in the generative functions, for the use of marriage in the infecund periods only, and in this way to regulate birth without offending the moral principles which have been recalled earlier.20

Serious being the key word. Catholics using NFP today, are not using “serious” motives.

 

[PaulinVA]

PaulinVA, what is the minimum number of children a couple must generate in order to escape dementia or not be guilty of facilitating the “culture of death”?

StAnastasia

Zero. Nil. Zilch. There is no minimum.

Being open to life and having a minimum number of children are not the same thing.

I have four children. We are, of course, open to more, but are not actively trying.

In fact, being open to life and actively trying are not the same thing, either,