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Xantippe
Guest
Good, I’m glad you think so.
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Rau
Guest
I’m sorry, I don’t understand how a hypothetical couple, existing only in our minds, can feel pressure, as we contemplate how they could reasonably, and morally, respond to a set of circumstances.
I don’t think my theorising about circumstances that might suggest abstinence was reasonable would any more pressure our hypothetical couple than would your observation that “people have emotional, spiritual, psychological, and many other types of needs… A woman or a man could desire to continue growing their family in many situations…”
*We’re not pressuring anybody. We’re **imagining *a situation, putting ourselves in that situation (by virtue of applying our reason), and judging the reasonableness of alternative options - as we would see it.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
The main problems with nfp discussions is that either people feel like they have to justify their own decisions or that they feel others are not acting appropriately.
People who have a few kids and use nfp for whatever reason will think others should use nfp. And others will think that people should not be using nfp in thier circumstances.
It’s this way because we all are using our own decisions as reference points. It’s hard for people to understand that nfp might not be a good idea and it’s hard for others to fathom having another child.
And the hard part is that once you " Learn" nfp you can’t ever unlearn it.
So while we may never practice nfp again, it’s quite obvious when my wife is fertile. We joke that when the sex is good, that means she was fertile. Though there is much truth in that.
But that means that even though we agreed that nfp is not healthy for us, it will always leave its mark.
Obviously we have been over and over things before. My theological problem is that though my reasons for using nfp might be incredibly grave or serious or just, my decision not to use it can be different than someone else. This is a new theology. It will be hashed out long after we are dead.
I also know from nfp instruction, that many men struggle with other sins and nfp can compound that. Now every wife thinks her husband is a tower of knight like honor but many are not.
People who have a few kids and use nfp for whatever reason will think others should use nfp. And others will think that people should not be using nfp in thier circumstances.
It’s this way because we all are using our own decisions as reference points. It’s hard for people to understand that nfp might not be a good idea and it’s hard for others to fathom having another child.
And the hard part is that once you " Learn" nfp you can’t ever unlearn it.
So while we may never practice nfp again, it’s quite obvious when my wife is fertile. We joke that when the sex is good, that means she was fertile. Though there is much truth in that.
But that means that even though we agreed that nfp is not healthy for us, it will always leave its mark.
Obviously we have been over and over things before. My theological problem is that though my reasons for using nfp might be incredibly grave or serious or just, my decision not to use it can be different than someone else. This is a new theology. It will be hashed out long after we are dead.
I also know from nfp instruction, that many men struggle with other sins and nfp can compound that. Now every wife thinks her husband is a tower of knight like honor but many are not.
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Xantippe
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- I would add that a lot of people translate “it is licit to practice NFP under XYZ circumstances” into “you *must *practice NFP under XYZ circumstances.”
- The having a rough idea of fertility issue is a logical problem with providentialism, I think.
(Note for non-HD readers: that was a joke, not actual NFP advice.)
Or alternately, not have marital relations at all…
- About that last bolded phrase–uh oh, you’re going to have to argue with bitterhope, now.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
The same way they deal with it when they are single.
There are going to be a lot of shocked wives when the end of days comes and browsing histories are revealed.
This is not the fault of nfp of course it’s just I think many women don’t know and don’t want to know how periodic abstinence is dealt with in many cases.
Now, that’s what confession is for. But it seems to be an area that women don’t know enough about to help thier spouses attain heaven.
I’ll admit though that this argument is overused by anti nfp types.
But by the same token I think everyone who raves about how nice nfp is
May be a little naive about what the spouse does to compensate.
Nfp if practiced correctly should be a struggle, it should be hard. If it’s not, then there is a lack of communication about it.
(Note: I am admittedly very illogical about the issue currently. A good logical mind can recognize this, for that reason, take my posts with a grain of salt for now)
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Xantippe
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- Do we think the struggling-with-porn guys were perfectly chaste and never looked at porn during their bachelorhoods and are just now struggling with chastity now that they’re married?
Also, a lot of contracepting couples have huge porn problems–in fact, wives routinely get ignored in favor of porn. Basically, porn is a huge problem across the board.
I think providentialism sets couples up for disaster once there is substantial need for abstinence. Because sooner or later, it’s coming.
- Again, you need to have this argument with bitterhope. You’re arguing the “NFP is too hard for men” side which bitterhope objects to very much.
- I don’t ever hear much on CAF about how “nice” NFP is, but it is definitely true that a lot of couples have libidinal mismatches and NFP can help smooth that out. Otherwise, there’s the problem of, “how can I miss you if you never go away?” One spouse may never have a chance to experience actual desire if they are getting pestered continuously and nothing they offer is ever good enough, just the prelude to the next request. (See #1.)
- I don’t think NFP is going to be a struggle all the time, but it will be some of the time. However, I have to say that my husband and I have been doing this for 18 years now, and it’s a lot easier being a 40-something NFP user than a 20-something NFP user (at least from the point of view of levels of motivation and not cheating on rules). We’re now dealing with a much shorter calendar (just tossed out Day 2) and it’s not a big deal. When one is highly motivated, it’s a lot easier.
- At my house, I’m the much more impulsive spouse, so I can’t say that I really identify with the gender picture you painted. I cannot give a solid answer, but I’m pretty sure that most/all of our pregnancies involve me initiating/throwing caution to the wind.
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Xantippe
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To expand on my idea of NFP being easier when highly motivated, let me give an analogy.
Let’s say that you were told not to eat anything for four hours. Wouldn’t that be hard?
But let’s add that you were told not to eat anything for four hours or you’d DIE. It would still be hard, but there wouldn’t be a struggle.
In fact, I’d argue that the ability to sacrifice without internal struggle could be evidence that there is a serious reason involved.
Let’s say that you were told not to eat anything for four hours. Wouldn’t that be hard?
But let’s add that you were told not to eat anything for four hours or you’d DIE. It would still be hard, but there wouldn’t be a struggle.
In fact, I’d argue that the ability to sacrifice without internal struggle could be evidence that there is a serious reason involved.
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
Well, while this completely fictional scenario is about total abstinence, not NFP. Scarlett shutting Rhett out of her bed because she didn’t want to get fat, was mentioned. But I always thought that decision was NOT because she actually cared about weight gain. It was because she found out Ashley couldn’t have sex with Melanie anymore because she would die if she got pregnant again. And she thought it would somehow be an expression of love for Ashley to not have sex with her spouse, either.
But of course, it turns out Ash WAS having sex with Mel, and she did get pregnant, and she did die.
Gee, Ash really does comes off as a selfish idiot. And I always wonder, if Mel actually had a subconscious death wish. I find it very hard to believe she was as clueless about Ash’s emotional adultery, as Scarlett blithely assumed.
But of course, it turns out Ash WAS having sex with Mel, and she did get pregnant, and she did die.
Gee, Ash really does comes off as a selfish idiot. And I always wonder, if Mel actually had a subconscious death wish. I find it very hard to believe she was as clueless about Ash’s emotional adultery, as Scarlett blithely assumed.
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Xantippe
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To follow this up, when I had gestational diabetes my last pregnancy, I did finger sticks for blood sugar four times a day and kept a very strict diet. By the end of my pregnancy, I had gained 12 pounds and delivered a 9 pound baby.
The finger sticks and diet weren’t my favorite thing (and frankly, I was half-starved for those three months), but there wasn’t any internal struggle over it, because it was just so obviously necessary, both for my sake and the baby’s sake. It just had to be done.
My husband says (and I totally agree with this), that people often misuse the concept of a “moral dilemma.” True moral dilemmas (not knowing which course to take) are actually very unusual. What is much more common is knowing the right thing to do but not wanting to do it because it’s HARD–and people call that a moral dilemma.
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Mi_Rose
Guest
I am post-menopausal now so NFP is easy,
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We have 7 kids and when we used it to space kids it was difficult but when we decided seven was enough it got easier. It all depends on motivation.
If men turn to porn or masturbation to deal with periods of abstinence that is something to take up with their confessor not to blame their wives for. Sex under those circumstances is just using the wife as a way out and not mastering their sin.
.We have 7 kids and when we used it to space kids it was difficult but when we decided seven was enough it got easier. It all depends on motivation.
If men turn to porn or masturbation to deal with periods of abstinence that is something to take up with their confessor not to blame their wives for. Sex under those circumstances is just using the wife as a way out and not mastering their sin.
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Xantippe
Guest
Yeah.I am post-menopausal now so NFP is easy,
We have 7 kids and when we used it to space kids it was difficult but when we decided seven was enough it got easier. It all depends on motivation.
If men turn to porn or masturbation to deal with periods of abstinence that is something to take up with their confessor not to blame their wives for. Sex under those circumstances is just using the wife as a way out and not mastering their sin.
I know everybody’s different, but our NFP definitely started being a little fuzzier once it was a reasonable time to have another baby and then WHAM…baby!
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Mi_Rose
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Anglewannabe
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I saw the movie, but now I am thinking I should see if my local library has the book
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Xantippe
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It is super racist.I saw the movie, but now I am thinking I should see if my local library has the book
I’m normally the last person to say “that’s racist,” but it is. On the other hand, I think it may be the Great American Novel.
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