When is NFP wrong?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well, we’re all different people dealing with different situations.

And anyway, we’re talking about NOT having sex. Where is the sinfulness in mutually deciding to do something else?

Yeah, for years we have argued this. But certainly not having sex can indeed be sinful and surley people can be selfish.

My marriage has withstood many things. It’s strong, it’s holy. But I’m so glad we gave up on NFP. Our marriage is better for it. Our family is better for it.
I’m glad NFP is a concession of the church. But it most certainly is not for everyone.

 

[Xantippe]

Yeah, for years we have argued this. But certainly not having sex can indeed be sinful and surley people can be selfish.

My marriage has withstood many things. It’s strong, it’s holy. But I’m so glad we gave up on NFP. Our marriage is better for it. Our family is better for it.
I’m glad NFP is a concession of the church. But it most certainly is not for everyone.

Well, there’s a quote that goes, “You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.”

Similarly, lots of practicing Catholics will find that there does come a time where they’ve got to (just in the interests of sheer self-preservation) either do NFP or just plain abstinence, whether it’s their cup of tea or not.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Interestingly, there is a new medical device recently approved by the FDA, that essentially allows obese people to purge some of their stomach content through a tube. Apparently it’s like a “feeding tube” but the tube is meant to have food go out, not in. I don’t see much difference between this and what people do when they have bulimia. Though it does reduce some of the risks of vomiting (all the stomach acid can damage the throat and teeth).

So, would this device also be considered to be “unhealthy” and as problematic as ABC?

That sounds awful. When my son was on a feeding tube one of the nurses was unfamiliar with the type he had and left it open. His stomach contents drained out all over him as he slept. It was not pleasant at all. He actually got chemical burns because stomach acid is very acidic. All he had in him was the formula for feeding tubes, and any meds. I can’t imagine doing that on purpose.

 

[Allegra]

That sounds awful. When my son was on a feeding tube one of the nurses was unfamiliar with the type he had and left it open. His stomach contents drained out all over him as he slept. It was not pleasant at all. He actually got chemical burns because stomach acid is very acidic. All he had in him was the formula for feeding tubes, and any meds. I can’t imagine doing that on purpose.

Eww! When I was getting trained on my daughter’s tube, the nurse showed me how to use the syringe to release gas, and she said that if she’s in the wrong position, or if I syringe out too much, I could accidentally take out some of the lining of her stomach!

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I don’t know about morally, but medically, yeah, I would think that it would go without saying that punching a hole in your abdomen to pump your stomach so that you can overeat is obviously less healthy than simply limiting your food intake. There would be a risk of infection as well as accidentally damaging the stomach lining by pumping out too much. I would expect that such a device would only be recommended for extreme cases where the person has PICA or something like Prader-Willi where their abilitiy for self-control is extremely compromised and the need to empty the stomach safely is likely.

I tend to agree BUT note that you are conceding that even such a device might be appropriate for “extreme cases”. However, per Catholic teaching, ABC is never appropriate, even for “extreme cases” such as, say, someone with Prader - Willi or some other disorder causing developmental delays that could also compromise the ability to exercise self-control when it comes to sex.

So, the “ABC = bulimia” analogy is far from perfect, though I realize that is the case for analogies in general.

Anyway, I guess this is off-topic from the OP since she was asking “When is NFP wrong” and not discussing NFP vs ABC. I suppose the debate is really “is it possible to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality” and I know many will say that is impossible and others (such as Hoosier Daddy and some other posters who have commented on the topic before) will say it certainly IS possible.

I also know some evangelicals think that NFP is actually against the Word of God and state that Paul taught Christian married couples that the only legitimate reason for abstinence in marriage is for prayer. (Such people also tend to use Paul’s words to urge married couples to NEVER refuse a request for sex.)

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

After more than 12 years of using NFP to avoid (mostly) I can say DH and I haven’t used it with a contraceptive mentality.

We used contraception before that. It’s a big difference.

Also want to bring up members of a couple may selfishly deny relations. Members of a couple may also selfishly request relations as well.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Eww! When I was getting trained on my daughter’s tube, the nurse showed me how to use the syringe to release gas, and she said that if she’s in the wrong position, or if I syringe out too much, I could accidentally take out some of the lining of her stomach!

My son had a “mini one button”. The connector set had two ports. One for the feed, one for meds. So the nurse closed one and left one open. At least there was no suction, just gravity.

I’m glad your little one doesn’t need hers anymore.

 

[Xantippe]

After more than 12 years of using NFP to avoid (mostly) I can say DH and I haven’t used it with a contraceptive mentality.

We used contraception before that. It’s a big difference.

Also want to bring up members of a couple may selfishly deny relations. Members of a couple may also selfishly request relations as well.

That is an excellent point, and one that isn’t enough appreciated, I think.

Our spouse is not some sort of live marital aid–he or she is a person.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

That is an excellent point, and one that isn’t enough appreciated, I think.

Our spouse is not some sort of live marital aid–he or she is a person.

I totally agree and certainly some who oppose NFP because of the idea that no one should be “deprived” in marriage also seem to think that it’s okay for one person to use a spouse for sexual relief.

Maybe not as much among Catholics but certainly I get that vibe in some evangelical circles about how essential sex is to (usually) husbands and that God designed men that way, so there’s no way He’d approve of a method to space births that would “deprive” them.

I even recall a Catholic convert from an evangelical denomination, state that it’s perfectly fine for a husband to look at other women with lust as long as he doesn’t physically commit adultery, and that a wife should gladly let him have sex with her after being “worked up” by the sight of other women, essentially as a reward for not actually having sex with them. But to me, that’s certainly a case of a husband selfishly using his wife as a sexual receptacle, objectifying her into a masturbation device.

 

[Allegra]

My son had a “mini one button”. The connector set had two ports. One for the feed, one for meds. So the nurse closed one and left one open. At least there was no suction, just gravity.

I’m glad your little one doesn’t need hers anymore.

When Baby Girl first got hers in, she accidentally opened the medicine ports. Yeah, it was a mess. Pediasure everywhere. It took me a few seconds to figure out where the leak was and I was really scared that she had somehow pulled the button out.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Anyway, I guess this is off-topic from the OP since she was asking “When is NFP wrong” and not discussing NFP vs ABC. I suppose the debate is really “is it possible to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality” and I know many will say that is impossible and others (such as Hoosier Daddy and some other posters who have commented on the topic before) will say it certainly IS possible.

I like to quote the Catechism when it comes to this topic (whether we can use NFP selfishly). I added the bolding:

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. **It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. **

And I feel this one is relevant as well

2371 "Let all be convinced that human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man’s eternal destiny."160

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

That sounds awful. When my son was on a feeding tube one of the nurses was unfamiliar with the type he had and left it open. His stomach contents drained out all over him as he slept. It was not pleasant at all. He actually got chemical burns because stomach acid is very acidic. All he had in him was the formula for feeding tubes, and any meds. I can’t imagine doing that on purpose.

Eww! When I was getting trained on my daughter’s tube, the nurse showed me how to use the syringe to release gas, and she said that if she’s in the wrong position, or if I syringe out too much, I could accidentally take out some of the lining of her stomach!

:grouphug:

 

[Anglewannabe]

My marriage has withstood many things. It’s strong, it’s holy. **But I’m so glad we gave up on NFP. ** Our marriage is better for it. Our family is better for it.
I’m glad NFP is a concession of the church. But it most certainly is not for everyone.

I have to ask. Are you saying you are glad you are using ABC? Or are you glad you now have lots of kids???

 

[Anglewannabe]

And then what if the husband wants to sleep with you on your fertile period but both of you initially planned to not have a baby, what are you supposed to do?

I fell very sorry for the woman who is married to a man that does not want to have kids, yet wants to sleep with her when he knows she is fertile. What are you suppose to do? See your priest and hope there as an impediment to your marriage and get an annulment

 

[Xantippe]

How is that conversation supposed to go, “Honey, I know you’re terrified of getting pregnant again so soon and you’re overwhelmed with stuff as it is, but I have NEEDS.”

Yuck.

 

[Rau]

I have to ask. Are you saying you are glad you are using ABC? Or are you glad you now have lots of kids???

I assume differently. He does not use abc, nor does awareness of fertility enter into decisions about whether to have sex. AND at the present time, family size is acceptable.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I assume differently. He does not use abc, nor does awareness of fertility enter into decisions about whether to have sex. AND at the present time, family size is acceptable.

Yes. Exactly.

 

[bitterhope]

I have to ask. Are you saying you are glad you are using ABC? Or are you glad you now have lots of kids???

Not everyone that doesn’t use birth control of any sort has a lot of kids. Actually the majority of the world throughout history has not used any type of birth control and still has not had tons of children.

 

[bitterhope]

How is that conversation supposed to go, “Honey, I know you’re terrified of getting pregnant again so soon and you’re overwhelmed with stuff as it is, but I have NEEDS.”

Yuck.

People need to quit dumping on men and assuming they are sexual deviants. Often wives have more needs for physical intamcy than their husbands. Often people don’t agree that children should be avoided. I know way more women begging for a baby but whose husbands are strictly opposed. I know more women interested in more frequent intamcy than I do men. NFP is wrong when a person places their own desires and needs selfishly above the desires and needs of their spouse, above God’s will, above the call of their vocation, and with any selfish or malicious intentions.

 

[Rau]

People need to quit dumping on men and assuming they are sexual deviants. Often wives have more needs for physical intamcy than their husbands. Often people don’t agree that children should be avoided. I know way more women begging for a baby but whose husbands are strictly opposed. I know more women interested in more frequent intamcy than I do men. NFP is wrong when a person places their own desires and needs selfishly above the desires and needs of their spouse, above God’s will, above the call of their vocation, and with any selfish or malicious intentions.

When you say “selfishly” you more or less colour all acts that follow, so making disagreement unlikely,…

It should be noted that the “call of their vocation” is a general term. It surely, at least in most cases, encompasses the transmission of life, but it does not specify the extent to which that call should be met. That’s for each couple to discern.