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thyrodandstaff
Guest
thyrodandstaff
When does quarreling become a mortal sin, and when does it remain a venial one?
When does quarreling become a mortal sin, and when does it remain a venial one?
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Garyjohn2
Guest
I’m not expert, but a mortal sin has to be grave matter and have intent. So, if you are quarreling with someone to be malicious, that may be flirting with mortal sin territory.
It really depends on what the quarreling is about, what is being said, the mental disposition of those quarreling, this nature of the relationship of the people quarreling, its history, and so so many other things.
In fact, I’m not sure if this question is possible to answer without many more details!
It really depends on what the quarreling is about, what is being said, the mental disposition of those quarreling, this nature of the relationship of the people quarreling, its history, and so so many other things.
In fact, I’m not sure if this question is possible to answer without many more details!
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Nimzovik
Guest
Well… certainly if a gun is involved methinks…
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Garyjohn2
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Even then, the person with the gun would need the free use of his will. Being drunk, drugged, or brainwashed might lessen the severity of the sin to the point that it is not mortal!
There are many complications that could make this difficult to determine.
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OraLabora
Guest
As a husband, I would have to say “when she’s right and you’re wrong”.
Which for a married man means… always!
Which for a married man means… always!
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kimmielittle
Guest
Venal Sin - When I do it
Definitely A Mortal Sin - When my Brother does it
Definitely A Mortal Sin - When my Brother does it
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clem456
Guest
If quarrelliing becomes an intentional assault on the God-given dignity of the person, I would think that is a grave matter. Unfortunately and to my deep regret, I have done this with my wife. If you are beating on someone in an unproductive argument, for the sole purpose of damaging them or making them cower or feel shame, and you can see that they are in distress, you are in dangerous territory in my opinion. I would think you are separating yourself from God’s grace at that point. It doesn’t take a knife to kill someone, carefully chosen words will do just fine…
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kimmielittle
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thyrodandstaff
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Well, let’s say someone wanted to get a dog from the shelter but they wouldn’t give it to them because they already promised to the dog to someone else. But the person argued for several minutes to no avail even though they said there was no chance they could get the dog. The discussion got a little heated but here was no vulgarity or threats or anything. Is that a mortal sin? Where is the grave matter?
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dailey
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In my opinion, no, not mortal. (I actually asked my priest about quarreling recently)
I think clem456 hit the nail on the head…
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dailey
Guest
The day before Easter (last year), I got into a quarrel with my husband. Something similar to what you mentioned towards your wife. I had to wake up super early Easter morning to catch Father, so I could squeeze in a 1 minute confession, before his busy day.
Definitely felt like a mortal sin…
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mytruepower2
Guest
When it leads to you murdering, stealing from, committing sexual impurity with, bearing false witness against or coveting the possessions of someone, or when it leads to you seriously dishonoring your father or mother.
It could also become a mortal sin if the quarrel becomes so heated that you deliberately take the name of the Lord in vain, or miss mass in order to continue your quarrel.
The ten commandments are what the church means by “grave matter,” and only grave matter can become a mortal sin.
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clem456
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That would be a somewhat superficial reading of mortal sin. Quarelling can most definitely be mortal sin even if the surface elements of the 10 commandments don’t seem to be violated.
From the catechism:
“1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.”
Mark 12 28:34
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” 29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” 32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
It would be difficult to rationalize quarelling that is intentional, abusive, and cruel as not being mortal sin. Missing Mass or swearing might be the least of the problems…
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Elizabeth502
Guest
~when it rises to the level of verbal abuse, or abuse of power
~when it includes serious emotional or physical injury to one of the parties
~when the impetus itself is unjust (such as, a wish to dominate; such as, a false or reckless claim)
So, in short, when the nature of it violates seriously the Fifth Commandment
~when it includes serious emotional or physical injury to one of the parties
~when the impetus itself is unjust (such as, a wish to dominate; such as, a false or reckless claim)
So, in short, when the nature of it violates seriously the Fifth Commandment
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mytruepower2
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No, I don’t think it would be difficult to rationalize that at all. Every church document I’ve ever read says that it doesn’t matter how you feel or what you know or think. What matters is -what you choose to do.- That’s where sin takes place.
Being mean-spirited is not a mortal sin. It may not be virtuous, and it may not be charitable… or it may be. Jesus himself frequently said things like “you blind fools!” to the pharasees and other such impenitent sinners. Let’s also not forget that there is a basic difference between “loving” someone (choosing to sacrifice on their behalf) and “liking” them (-desiring- to help them.)
I’ve certainly never seen any documentation that would indicate that “being mean” can be a sin in and of itself. Jesus said the greatest man who ever lived was John the Baptist. John the Baptist spent his life in the wilderness dressed in animal skin, eating bugs and yelling. Clearly, being harsh is not a sin in and of itself, much less a mortal sin.
It might be different if the church didn’t have such clear definitions of “grave matter.” As things stand, I stand by my answer.
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clem456
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Feelings thoughts and actions all work together in making an intentional choice. My post doesn’t refer to just feelings, but feelings put into actions which are intentionally meant to destroy another person.
Jesus is not being harsh or mean spirited when he chastizes. He is teaching and correcting. We are not talking about loving correction here. Of course being mean spirited in itself is not a mortal sin, we are talking about mean-spiritedness put into action. Intentionally.
The documentation perspective you are talking about is a very narow and legalistic one. It fails to take into account the damage that is done to another human being. Much of that damage may be usneen to you as you justify youself (“you” generically not personally) with not crossing the line of mortal sin. Many women are pushed into abortion by abusive men who never touch them with their hands or a weapon. If that is not a grave matter separating you from God’s grace I don’t know what is. Quarelling definitely can be, not always is, but can be, a mortal sin.
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coco2
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And don’t you forget it!As a husband, I would have to say “when she’s right and you’re wrong”.
Which for a married man means… always!
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clem456
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Thank you Elizabeth for saying it so concisely and simply.
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mytruepower2
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If you’re making your moral choices based on the damage they may or may not do to others, this is consequentialism. It’s not the outcome of the moral choices that are wrong, but the choices themselves.
Yes, trying to hurt someone deliberately through quarreling is a sin; a sin of being uncharitable. However, it’s not “grave matter.”
As far as legalism goes; again, having no natural predisposition not to hurt people may give me a different perspective on this, but I need to be told what right and wrong are. If quarreling is wrong enough to kill the life of God within you, why hasn’t the Church spoken on this -somewhere?-
I simply can’t see how such a moral code could be defended, if it left out key instructions like this.
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clem456
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You have consequentialism confused here. Your use of the concept could be used to dimiss almost any sin in a self enclosed world. Moral choices are made based on objective morality, given to us by God. Morality is not simply a negative position to protect us from falling out of grace, but also expresses in a positive way God’s love for ALL of us, not just the individual doing the sinning. In the morality you envision, since the mafia boss separates hiimself from the consequences of his actions through a subordinate, when that subordinate severs a man’s hand with a hatchet, the boss is not guilty of grave matter. Really?
**Please read your catechism on the 5th commandment. You must read past the first few lines. I have pasted some of it below. Notice the bold section. **
**Again, see the church’s OFFICIAL TEACHING below, directly from the catechism of the Catholic Church. There is more from that section, but I am not going to clog the forum with it, it can be read if you wish. **
II. RESPECT FOR THE DIGNITY OF PERSONS
Respect for the souls of others: scandal
2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into **spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense. **
2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.87
2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.
Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.
2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90
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