When is sexual attraction "wrong"

[rkwittem]

the OP ought to unwind, go out on dates, learn how men and women interact in the usual way. he shouldn’t have to consult the CCC before he takes a woman out to dinner.

I haven’t unwound in that sense in years. I went to my senior prom. Big deal. As I got older and more learned about this stuff, I clammed up and basically shut women out of my life in that context. Sure, I get along fine with women at work and in my family in my public life, but I’m utterly terrified of treating them remotely sexually even if I cannot help it.

(To avoid unnecessary word-splicing and interpretation, by “treating them sexually” I basically mean to acknowledge, recognize, or otherwise validate any sexual response my body may have towards them, involuntary or not. Essentially, I have tried to put these sentiments in a box, lock it, and ignore them. Of course, that has not worked, which is why I’m posing these questions here.)

Would I love to relax, unwind, go on a few dates and act a little more in “the usual way”- sure. My fear of sin is what basically precludes me from doing anything of the sort, considering I consider almost every bit of that advice an unnecessary near occasion of sin.
To avoid sexual sins, I tried putting my sexuality in a box. I’ve tried bringing it carefully out of that box, but the main question of this thread (when is it wrong) is what ultimately always bars me from doing anything you suggested, sadly.

I’ve come awfully close to asking a handful of women out in the past 6-7 years, but I always choose not to. I just can’t do it in good faith. It’s too dangerous, morally speaking. Maybe I just don’t trust myself. It’s frustrating and I almost want to give up. It’s that frustrating. (Just to be clear, I’m not talking about ending my life or any of that stuff- just giving up on treating my sexuality as anything but a burden and a curse.)

To answer some other questions, no I have not read the CCC cover-to-cover. I did study it in high school. But not the whole thing. A school year is only so long.

Thank you for the many interesting replies.

 

[Kamaduck]

I haven’t unwound in that sense in years. I went to my senior prom. Big deal. As I got older and more learned about this stuff, I clammed up and basically shut women out of my life in that context. Sure, I get along fine with women at work and in my family in my public life, but I’m utterly terrified of treating them remotely sexually even if I cannot help it.

(To avoid unnecessary word-splicing and interpretation, by “treating them sexually” I basically mean to acknowledge, recognize, or otherwise validate any sexual response my body may have towards them, involuntary or not. Essentially, I have tried to put these sentiments in a box, lock it, and ignore them. Of course, that has not worked, which is why I’m posing these questions here.)

Would I love to relax, unwind, go on a few dates and act a little more in “the usual way”- sure. My fear of sin is what basically precludes me from doing anything of the sort, considering I consider almost every bit of that advice an unnecessary near occasion of sin.
To avoid sexual sins, I tried putting my sexuality in a box. I’ve tried bringing it carefully out of that box, but the main question of this thread (when is it wrong) is what ultimately always bars me from doing anything you suggested, sadly.

I’ve come awfully close to asking a handful of women out in the past 6-7 years, but I always choose not to. I just can’t do it in good faith. It’s too dangerous, morally speaking. Maybe I just don’t trust myself. It’s frustrating and I almost want to give up. It’s that frustrating. (Just to be clear, I’m not talking about ending my life or any of that stuff- just giving up on treating my sexuality as anything but a burden and a curse.)

To answer some other questions, no I have not read the CCC cover-to-cover. I did study it in high school. But not the whole thing. A school year is only so long.

Thank you for the many interesting replies.

That sounds miserable.

Listen- EVERYONE here agrees that you should talk to women and date. That’s how you’ll learn to respect them. It’s not wrong to be attracted before marriage- how do you think people get married in the first place? They date people that they like. They acknowledge that they are attracted, but they (hopefully) don’t dwell on sexual thoughts before marriage.

You can’t just stop being attracted to people- that’s how God made us. He wants us to accept that gift, but he also wants us to use it in the proper context.

It is never sinful simply to be attracted to someone. You have sinned when you seek out sexual pleasure in the wrong context or when you dwell on sexual thoughts in the wrong context. Being aroused or attracted, in and of itself, is not a sin- it is morally neutral. It’s your reaction to it that is good or bad.

 

[rkwittem]

That sounds miserable.

Listen- EVERYONE here agrees that you should talk to women and date. That’s how you’ll learn to respect them. It’s not wrong to be attracted before marriage- how do you think people get married in the first place? They date people that they like. They acknowledge that they are attracted, but they (hopefully) don’t dwell on sexual thoughts before marriage.

I do talk to women. I just don’t date them. I treat them all the way I would treat my mother or sister or aunts. Dating and sexual thoughts go too closely together for me. It makes me skittish. I don’t trust myself- that’s why it’s morally repugnant for me to date. It just tempts my mind too much. I can’t do it in good faith at all.

 

[Baelor]

I do talk to women. I just don’t date them. I treat them all the way I would treat my mother or sister or aunts.

You do understand that that kind of thinking will mean you will never get married, right? And that that kind of thinking at a broader level would lead to the extinction of our species?

 

[Kamaduck]

I do talk to women. I just don’t date them. I treat them all the way I would treat my mother or sister or aunts. Dating and sexual thoughts go too closely together for me. It makes me skittish. I don’t trust myself- that’s why it’s morally repugnant for me to date. It just tempts my mind too much. I can’t do it in good faith at all.

If you cannot date without dwelling on impure thoughts, you need help. Avoiding dating will not solve this larger problem. Do you have a regular confessor or spiritual director?

Remember, a passing impure thought is not sinful. It’s dwelling on it that is the sin. Do you think you could recognize temptation and pray to God whenever you are tempted? That seems to help many people.

 

[rkwittem]

You do understand that that kind of thinking will mean you will never get married, right? And that that kind of thinking at a broader level would lead to the extinction of our species?

There are more important things to worry about then getting married and the extinction of our species. Plenty of other people will pick up the slack, I’m sure.

I’m not trying to be confrontational but I still haven’t heard a sound argument here, from my family, priests or friends that I should take a swing at dating and make an unnecessary moral risk. You may only live once, but your soul also lives forever. I think it’s wiser to worry about that, even if that means making some painful sacrifices.

 

[rkwittem]

If you cannot date without dwelling on impure thoughts, you need help. Avoiding dating will not solve this larger problem. Do you have a regular confessor or spiritual director?

Remember, a passing impure thought is not sinful. It’s dwelling on it that is the sin. Do you think you could recognize temptation and pray to God whenever you are tempted? That seems to help many people.

You’re misunderstanding me. I’m not dwelling on these impure thoughts. They’re inextricably linked to dating/hanging out with the opposite sex. I’ll put it this way- spending time with charming, lovely women is like spending a day in a wonderful park/city with a massive storm cloud on the horizon coming towards you. Sure, you’re having a good time, but there’s the potential that you’re going to get rained/snowed on. I hope that doesn’t confuse you. It made sense when I thought it out in my head.

The only issue is how one reacts to them.

I don’t dwell on the impure thoughts (usually, and I confess them if I do, naturally); I dwell on my fear of committing a sexual sin. I think that’s the best way to describe it.

 

[Baelor]

There are more important things to worry about then getting married and the extinction of our species.

God feels differently, otherwise we would not be here.

Plenty of other people will pick up the slack, I’m sure.

What I am saying is that you are not unique. Your struggles are not unique. And they do not necessarily point to your vocation. If everyone responded to what are essentially universal challenges in the way you are doing, we would die out as a species and not be acting in accord with God’s plan.

I’m not trying to be confrontational but I still haven’t heard a sound argument here, from my family, priests or friends that I should take a swing at dating and make an unnecessary moral risk.

The sound argument is one that you refuse to address – that you are not actually placing yourself in unnecessary moral risk. That is the issue.

 

[Baelor]

I don’t dwell on the impure thoughts (usually, and I confess them if I do, naturally); I dwell on my fear of committing a sexual sin. I think that’s the best way to describe it.

Did Jesus run away from adversity?

 

[rkwittem]

The sound argument is one that you refuse to address – that you are not actually placing yourself in unnecessary moral risk. That is the issue.

I would contend that there is no such thing as necessary moral risk.

Did Jesus run away from adversity?

Of course not. But I’m not Jesus, either.

 

[Kamaduck]

You’re misunderstanding me. I’m not dwelling on these impure thoughts. They’re inextricably linked to dating/hanging out with the opposite sex. I’ll put it this way- spending time with charming, lovely women is like spending a day in a wonderful park/city with a massive storm cloud on the horizon coming towards you. Sure, you’re having a good time, but there’s the potential that you’re going to get rained/snowed on. I hope that doesn’t confuse you. It made sense when I thought it out in my head.

The only issue is how one reacts to them.

I don’t dwell on the impure thoughts (usually, and I confess them if I do, naturally); I dwell on my fear of committing a sexual sin. I think that’s the best way to describe it.

If you’re not dwelling on them, you’re not sinning by having them.

It’s no good to go around scared of committing sins in the future- God doesn’t want to go around being scared, he wants us to be at peace. If you’re not sinning by dating, why be scared of the possibility that you -might- sin later?

I’m just not seeing what the “moral risk” is here.

 

[CopticChristian]

There are more important things to worry about then getting married and the extinction of our species. Plenty of other people will pick up the slack, I’m sure.

I’m not trying to be confrontational but I still haven’t heard a sound argument here, from my family, priests or friends that I should take a swing at dating and make an unnecessary moral risk. You may only live once, but your soul also lives forever. I think it’s wiser to worry about that, even if that means making some painful sacrifices.

**Rk,

I have some questions for you.

Have you read the Catechism cover to cover?

Are you aware of Lust being one of the 7 deadly sins? **

I asked you this and you have avoided answering. May I ask you again.

Concerning your age of 25 and not dating, if you were my son, I would say, so what. This is not a concern. If you were 65 expressing this notion, then I might have a aconcern.

 

[Baelor]

I would contend that there is no such thing as necessary moral risk.

You misunderstand. The situation you are describing does not involve moral risk, necessary or unnecessary.

Of course not. But I’m not Jesus, either.

Is that a reason not to strive to be?

 

[rkwittem]

If you’re not dwelling on them, you’re not sinning by having them.

It’s no good to go around scared of committing sins in the future- God doesn’t want to go around being scared, he wants us to be at peace. If you’re not sinning by dating, why be scared of the possibility that you -might- sin later?

I’m just not seeing what the “moral risk” is here.

The risk is simple- by repeatedly putting myself in the company of attractive women on anything more than a casual/businesslike (emotionless, if you prefer) basis, I would repeatedly put myself at risk of impure thoughts. It’d be akin to taking a recovering alcoholic to a bar. You could tell every bartender and patron there not to offer them a drink, but it’s still a big risk taking them there. The only problem with this analogy is of course that I’m not a sex addict. (More sex-averse.)

**I have some questions for you.

Have you read the Catechism cover to cover?

Are you aware of Lust being one of the 7 deadly sins?**

I already answered the Catechism one earlier. And of course I’m aware of lust being one of the 7 deadly sins. I think most people know that one.

 

[rkwittem]

You misunderstand. The situation you are describing does not involve moral risk, necessary or unnecessary.

Is that a reason not to strive to be?

Of course not…that’s a remarkably high standard, though. That’s a debate for another thread, I think.

 

[Kamaduck]

The risk is simple- by repeatedly putting myself in the company of attractive women on anything more than a casual/businesslike (emotionless, if you prefer) basis, I would repeatedly put myself at risk of impure thoughts. It’d be akin to taking a recovering alcoholic to a bar. You could tell every bartender and patron there not to offer them a drink, but it’s still a big risk taking them there. The only problem with this analogy is of course that I’m not a sex addict. (More sex-averse.)

But you say you don’t dwell on these impure thoughts, so how is it a “moral risk”? You seem to be saying that impure thoughts are not even guaranteed at this point. If you know you won’t dwell on them, why are you scared of having them?

I’m just trying to understand what exactly the problem is here.

 

[rkwittem]

But you say you don’t dwell on these impure thoughts, so how is it a “moral risk”? You seem to be saying that impure thoughts are not even guaranteed at this point. If you know you won’t dwell on them, why are you scared of having them?

I’m just trying to understand what exactly the problem is here.

To be clear, they are a guarantee.
I don’t like them one bit. They do no one a lick of a good. They are, quite simply, useless.

I don’t what else to say other than, “I think they’re wrong, yet I’m told they’re not, but I’d still prefer they were wrong because that’s safer.”

 

[Baelor]

I don’t what else to say other than, “I think they’re wrong, yet I’m told they’re not, but I’d still prefer they were wrong because that’s safer.”

So you reject Church teaching? In that case, the problem’s source is obvious.

 

[rkwittem]

So you reject Church teaching? In that case, the problem’s source is obvious.

I was really hoping it wouldn’t come to this. Let me put it this way- I had a problem with masturbation when I was much younger and came to hate myself because of it. I came to hate my sexuality as a result. That’s as much as I’m going to say on this because that’s all there is to say.

Knowing that I was already somewhat predisposed to misusing my sexual faculties led me basically say “screw it” with the rest of sexuality. I basically my made up my mind that I could never ever trust myself in any situation that might be remotely sexual. That meant no dating, no women as friends, nothing like that one bit. You might argue I was/am wrong. I would agree- but what would someone expect from a dumb teenage boy?

I’ve grown up a lot since then, and I deep down really do want to experience a relationship (whether or not I am called to marriage is another matter entirely) with a woman, but I’m afraid I just cannot or will not trust myself.

 

[Baelor]

I was really hoping it wouldn’t come to this. Let me put it this way- I had a problem with masturbation when I was much younger and came to hate myself because of it. I came to hate my sexuality as a result. That’s as much as I’m going to say on this because that’s all there is to say.

Knowing that I was already somewhat predisposed to misusing my sexual faculties led me basically say “screw it” with the rest of sexuality. I basically my made up my mind that I could never ever trust myself in any situation that might be remotely sexual. That meant no dating, no women as friends, nothing like that one bit. You might argue I was/am wrong. I would agree- but what would someone expect from a dumb teenage boy?

I’ve grown up a lot since then, and I deep down really do want to experience a relationship (whether or not I am called to marriage is another matter entirely) with a woman, but I’m afraid I just cannot or will not trust myself.

First, I assume you have been to confession since then. Do not withhold for yourself the forgiveness that God has given you.

Second, your struggles are not unusual! Almost all men on the planet struggle with masturbation (or engage in it). It is simply part of life for most individuals.

Third, please make an appointment with a priest ASAP. You need spiritual guidance from someone qualified. For your own sake, please reach out to your local parish.