When is sexual attraction "wrong"

[Edward_H]

It is not a “little nothing thread”.

Look- if the OP is sinning by being aroused (and he isn’t, but let’s pretend), does that mean he should avoid becoming aroused at all costs?

If he is aroused by attractive women, can he not date those people? Can he not speak to them? Must he avoid all attractive women in media, and in person? Where is the line?

That sounds like a miserable way to live, and it seems to be what he and Midnightsun are suggesting. They believe normal human interaction of any sort is a near occasion of sin that should be avoided. This is nonsense. If it’s really true for both of them, they need psychiatric help, not avoiding attractive women.

While I do think they should seek help from support groups of some kind, it is not sinful to become aroused if one did not seek to become so. They are not sinning by talking to people who they find attractive, as long as they treat those people with respect and do not lust after them.

Yes. At all costs we should not offend God. We should never give up the struggle for self mastery.

Of course he should date. He should learn self mastery and control over his body. This is part of growing in holiness and virtue. This is the good, happy, joyful holy struggle.

The Church gives us many means to do this. The Sacraments, prayer, practices of mortification, spiritual direction, the life of saints (who left a treasury of writings about holy purity).

Without good struggle we are less than what God needs us to be. Struggle produces strength for much tougher loving. The love of self donating parents, for instance.

 

[Rau]

Nursed sexual attraction between unmarried persons is NEVER perfectly ok.

Edward, what does “Nursed” mean in this context? In a developed and developing relationship, the attraction will likely remain, so nothing wrong there.

I wonder if by Nursed, you mean - exploited, misused, sought out for personal reward etc?

I believe the post you reference (by thewanderer) suggested nothing untoward. I understand his/her expression “resting in that attraction”, to mean an acknowledgement and acceptance of the attraction - nothing wrong there.

 

[Kamaduck]

I deleted my post because I realized you had made a distinction between sexual attraction and other kinds of attraction earlier in this thread, which is an interesting point. At which point, when one is sexually attracted, which I think in this context can even be separated from physically attracted, then one needs to try and let go of it and instead focus on other aspects of the attraction to the person in question.

I’m not catching the distinction between sexual attraction and physical attraction. Is physical attraction thinking “this person is beautiful/handsome!”, while sexual attraction is thinking “I want to have sex with this person!” (Or something to that effect.)

Because if that is the only thought we’re talking about, it makes sense to say that i must always be let go of outside of marriage.

However, having a physical reaction, when one is trying not to dwell on/ not dwelling on the desire or impure thoughts, isn’t sinful, because you’re tring to avoid it. I think. Does that sound right?

 

[thewanderer]

It is not a “little nothing thread”.

Look- if the OP is sinning by being aroused (and he isn’t, but let’s pretend), does that mean he should avoid becoming aroused at all costs?

If he is aroused by attractive women, can he not date those people? Can he not speak to them? Must he avoid all attractive women in media, and in person? Where is the line?

That sounds like a miserable way to live, and it seems to be what he and Midnightsun are suggesting. They believe normal human interaction of any sort is a near occasion of sin that should be avoided. This is nonsense. If it’s really true for both of them, they need psychiatric help, not avoiding attractive women.

While I do think they should seek help from support groups of some kind, it is not sinful to become aroused if one did not seek to become so. They are not sinning by talking to people who they find attractive, as long as they treat those people with respect and do not lust after them.

Yup. People who date are going to end up being sexually attracted to others at some point in their lives because they date. That does not mean that it is wrong to date people who you are attracted to, it just means you have to try to work towards focusing on the other aspects of attraction rather than the sexual aspect, recognizing that that aspect can only truly be enjoyed after marriage. Dating is an extremely important part of discerning marriage as a vocation. Being sexually attracted to ones spouse is an extremely important part of marriage. This kind of attraction is not something which is non-existent until one is married and then all of a sudden appears the moment you say your vows. It is something that will exist beforehand, during the time the couple in question is dating/courting. And there is nothing wrong with that That is the way we are created. Yes, you are going to have to constantly work to set aside the sexual aspect of your relationship until after marriage, but that doesn’t mean that just because you are drawn towards a sexual aspect of the relationship that you can’t date.

(I also want to note that you don’t want to shove the sexual side in a box and try to pretend that it doesn’t exist. That can lead to problems as well, instead, you need to recognize that it exists, and that it is a good thing that it exists, but that it is a good thing which can only really be enjoyed after marriage. So don’t try to pretend it doesn’t exist, but do work on recognizing that it is a good that exists that is reserved for marriage)

 

[Edward_H]

Edward, what does “Nursed” mean? In a developed and developing relationship, the attraction will likely remain, so nothing wrong there.

I wonder if by Nursed, you mean - exploited, misused, sought out for personal reward etc?

I believe the post you reference (by thewanderer) suggested nothing untoward. I understand his/her expression “resting in that attraction”, to mean an acknowledgement and acceptance of the attraction - nothing wrong there.

Nursed means to dwell on it in one’s consciousness. To perhaps elaborate an image, to relive a moment, a memory, to bring an image back to mind.

 

[thewanderer]

I’m not catching the distinction between sexual attraction and physical attraction. Is physical attraction thinking “this person is beautiful/handsome!”, while sexual attraction is thinking “I want to have sex with this person!” (Or something to that effect.)

Because if that is the only thought we’re talking about, it makes sense to say that i must always be let go of outside of marriage.

However, having a physical reaction, when one is trying not to dwell on/ not dwelling on the desire or impure thoughts, isn’t sinful, because you’re tring to avoid it. I think. Does that sound right?

I guess what I’m trying to get at is that there is a certain level of physical attraction which does not immediately draw one to desire sex, but is more focused on a sharing of affection than on sex itself. I’m calling that first kind of attraction physical and the kind that leads to thoughts and desires of sex sexual attraction. It is not wrong to feel a physical attraction to another, or even to indulge in it, so long as it is something which is only expressing affection rather than a desire for sex and sexual pleasure… does that make sense?

 

[Edward_H]

I’m not catching the distinction between sexual attraction and physical attraction. Is physical attraction thinking “this person is beautiful/handsome!”, while sexual attraction is thinking “I want to have sex with this person!” (Or something to that effect.)

Because if that is the only thought we’re talking about, it makes sense to say that i must always be let go of outside of marriage.

However, having a physical reaction, when one is trying not to dwell on/ not dwelling on the desire or impure thoughts, isn’t sinful, because you’re tring to avoid it. I think. Does that sound right?

Great point…yes physical attraction is one thing…perfectlyok…but to dwell on it…to take it to the sexual level…to fantasize about it…all wrong.

 

[Edward_H]

The Church gives us many means of growing in self mastery.

 

[Rau]

Great point…yes physical attraction is one thing…perfectlyok…but to dwell on it…to take it to the sexual level…to fantasize about it…all wrong.

That’s all fine, but to be crystal clear, the early posters referred to physical arousal. That is sexual. And it is not wrong either. When in that situation, a proper response is to note it, acknowledge it, accept it, and put it aside as something to be further addressed following marriage.

 

[Kamaduck]

Of course he should date. He should learn self mastery and control over his body. This is part of growing in holiness and virtue. This is the good, happy, joyful holy struggle.

…so we agree that he can participate in things that may arouse him if he is doing those things for a different, good purpose and trying not to dwell on anything impure?

Because that’s what I thought I was saying. Of course he should learn to control himself. But that’s not the same thing as avoiding anything that, in his present state, could possibly arouse him.

@thewanderer- I think that makes sense. Basically we are going to be attracted to the people we love on many levels, and while we will be attracted to them sexually as well, we mustn’t dwell on that aspect until after marriage. It will be there, and both our bodies and minds will react to it. We should realize that this will happen, but it’s not until after marriage that we can enjoy it. Yes?

But if it happens in the course of us doing other things, we must put it aside and not fall into lust. However, we have not sinned if we did not seek it out and do not dwell on it. Is that right?

 

[Fairwinds]

the OP has been lectured so much about sex and sin he’s veering towards scrupulosity.

 

[Edward_H]

That’s all fine, but to be crystal clear, the early posters referred to physical arousal. That is sexual. And it is not wrong either. When in that situation, a proper response is to note it, acknowledge it, accept it, and put it aside as something to be further addressed following marriage.

Yes but I reminded you that it is quite easy to get flipped around. Most men can make themselves physically aroused in 30 seconds with nothing but their imagination.

So to put physical arousal in a safe bucket is incorrect and will mislead people.

 

[Rau]

the OP has been lectured so much about sex and sin he’s veering towards scrupulosity.

An understandable conclusion ! However I think a number of us are seeking to do the reverse, lest that condition arise!

 

[Kamaduck]

Yes but I reminded you that it is quite easy to get flipped around. Most men can make themselves physically aroused in 30 seconds with nothing but their imagination.

So to put physical arousal in a safe bucket is incorrect and will mislead people.

But they are seeking out sexual pleasure for its own sake then, which is lust. That’s totally different than going about your business and accidentally getting aroused.

 

[Fairwinds]

An understandable conclusion ! However I think a number of us are seeking to do the reverse, lest that condition arise!

that wasn’t a pun, was it?

 

[thewanderer]

@thewanderer- I think that makes sense. Basically we are going to be attracted to the people we love on many levels, and while we will be attracted to them sexually as well, we mustn’t dwell on that aspect until after marriage. It will be there, and both our bodies and minds will react to it. We should realize that this will happen, but it’s not until after marriage that we can enjoy it. Yes?

But if it happens in the course of us doing other things, we must put it aside and not fall into lust. However, we have not sinned if we did not seek it out and do not dwell on it. Is that right?

Sounds about right to me.

Repressing our sexuality is wrong, just as allowing ourselves to dwell on it and enjoy sexual pleasure before marriage is. We are sexual beings and have to accept that that is a part of our existence, and it isn’t a bad thing to be sexual, or to be sexually attracted to others. That is a part of being human. But we need to learn how to place our sexuality and sexual desires in context, which means learn to recognize that it exists, and is good, but is meant to be reserved for marriage, so no seeking it out ahead of time, no dwelling in the pleasure because it feels good, but also not going out of ones way to avoid it unless it is too near an occasion of sin. We are all tempted every day in a wide array of ways. We are not required to avoid all temptation. So putting yourself in a situation which will make you be sexually attracted is not inherently any worse than walking into a grocery store or doughnut shop. Either can be wrong for a given person if it tempts them too strongly to sin, but neither is inherently sinful.

 

[Kamaduck]

An understandable conclusion ! However I think a number of us are seeking to do the reverse, lest that condition arise!

Definitely. I feel as though we’re on the verge of a breakthrough. After several pages of debate, we may soon be able to offer actual advice.

 

[Edward_H]

But they are seeking out sexual pleasure for its own sake then, which is lust. That’s totally different than going about your business and accidentally getting aroused.

And this is a good example. When one gets aroused one becomes conscious of it. At that point, it’s a good practice to will oneself to be de aroused. It’s relatively easy to do.

 

[Edward_H]

Definitely. I feel as though we’re on the verge of a breakthrough. After several pages of debate, we may soon be able to offer actual advice.

Actual advice is quite available. Prayer, avoiding near occasions…situations that one hasn’t yet mastered, fasting, mortification. Frequent confession helps, intense work, and of course the Sacraments.

 

[Fairwinds]

Definitely. I feel as though we’re on the verge of a breakthrough. After several pages of debate, we may soon be able to offer actual advice.

the OP ought to unwind, go out on dates, learn how men and women interact in the usual way. he shouldn’t have to consult the CCC before he takes a woman out to dinner.