When is soul created?

[ExGratia]

I hope this is the right forum; I’ve never posted in philosophy before.

We all know life begins at conception, so I always presumed that is when the soul is created.

But what about identical twins? The split into 2 babies occurs after conception.

Is there an authoritative answer? If not, what are some of your thoughts?

 

[bzkoss236]

I hope this is the right forum; I’ve never posted in philosophy before.

We all know life begins at conception, so I always presumed that is when the soul is created.

But what about identical twins? The split into 2 babies occurs after conception.

Is there an authoritative answer? If not, what are some of your thoughts?

My assumption is that since it is one baby at first, upon conception, one soul is created. When it splits into a second child, the second soul is created.

 

[Alindawyl]

There is no authoritative answer, as God has not chosen to reveal that information to us. He could create both souls immediately at conception. He could create only one soul at conception and then wait until the zygote splits to create the second. Or he could do it some other way. We just don’t know.

 

[JerryZ]

Let’s look at it from the standing point of GOD :bigyikes:

He knows all (Omniscience and all that)

He knows (remember HE KNOWS all, past present AND future) that the zygote will split, thereby creating 2 human beings…
It is only LOGICAL to assume that HE would create 2 souls

Next question

Peace!

 

[polytropos]

The Church does not have an authoritative teaching on when ensoulment occurs. Thinking of the soul as the “animating principle” of man, it seems likely to me that it would be created at conception, when the individual entity is created, but it’s conceivable that it would not be.

He knows all (Omniscience and all that)

He knows (remember HE KNOWS all, past present AND future) that the zygote will split, thereby creating 2 human beings…
It is only LOGICAL to assume that HE would create 2 souls

He even knows which cells are going to which human being after the split!

 

[Nita]

Let’s look at it from the standing point of GOD :bigyikes:

He knows all (Omniscience and all that)

He knows (remember HE KNOWS all, past present AND future) that the zygote will split, thereby creating 2 human beings…
It is only LOGICAL to assume that HE would create 2 souls

And what if that is why it splits in the first place – because God infused it with 2 souls!!!

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Let’s look at it from the standing point of GOD :bigyikes:

He knows all (Omniscience and all that)

He knows (remember HE KNOWS all, past present AND future) that the zygote will split, thereby creating 2 human beings…
It is only LOGICAL to assume that HE would create 2 souls

Next question

Peace!

That seems reasonable to me, It also explains the case of Siamese Twins where two persons share portions of the body.

 

[The_Serpent]

In the past some speculated that souls were created and joined to the body weeks or months after the original conception. Of course they didn’t have the technology we have now to know what occurs within. Generally now I believe all the Popes have taught it occurs at conception. But, I don’t have a citation for it.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

In the past some speculated that souls were created and joined to the body weeks or months after the original conception. Of course they didn’t have the technology we have now to know what occurs within. Generally now I believe all the Popes have taught it occurs at conception. But, I don’t have a citation for it.

I think the declaration on the Immaculate Conception states that Mary was without sin from the time of her conception. This implies that she had a soul at conception since sin is on the soul.

 

[The_Serpent]

I think the declaration on the Immaculate Conception states that Mary was without sin from the time of her conception. This implies that she had a soul at conception since sin is on the soul.

Yes. And since St. John the Baptist leaped in the womb when Mary visited after the Incarnation. There are two Biblical examples of ensoulment at conception.

 

[Maso]

The answer to this question is obvious to me, from Jeremiah: 1:5

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

The soul is created before conception. How can you argue with that…???

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The answer to this question is obvious to me, from Jeremiah: 1:5

The soul is created before conception. How can you argue with that…???

I would be careful with that. I think I have seen a teaching that there is not a cloud of souls awaiting bodies. Not sure how official it was; so don’t want to condemn it. Just urging caution and more research before you teach it.

 

[Maso]

Oh… so there’s a “waiting pool” of souls looking for bodies, kinda like at the Day Labor agencies, huh…?!

It just means that God had you and me on the drawing board of his research and development division before the fact of our birth and our conception.

God knows what he’s doing, but life as I know it seems to be an offensive game and there is a defensive team working against us and that team is Lucifer’s Fallen Angels of the Abysse.

They tell us that we win though…

( Don’t mind me… I’m just having a little fun with this… )

 

[Arandur]

I would be careful with that. I think I have seen a teaching that there is not a cloud of souls awaiting bodies. Not sure how official it was; so don’t want to condemn it. Just urging caution and more research before you teach it.

I’m pretty sure the Catechism states that God creates a soul immediately; there aren’t pre-existing souls waiting around. There are some significant potential implications of the latter that are problematic for belief in Redemption. It would mean that human nature is not necessarily identified in soul-body union, but that we exist in two different phases and that, frankly, the body isn’t necessary or part of our identity. There’s not much point to the Resurrection, then, uniting us to our bodies. Rather, the Gnostic view of bodies as tainted soul-prisons is more likely. It would also interject a question as to the effects of Original Sin, the time of creation (or un-created status) of the souls, the knowledge or capability of sin in the pre-mortal soul, and the justice of sending a soul to a tainted form or one God knows is going to be subject to immediate death or birth into horrors (whereas an immediate creation allows PRO-creation between man and God, and constitutes a natural co-operation between the two by Divine Rule; such a co-operation can occur according to that rule and thus avoid implicating God in active evil).

There’s a lot behind those things, but suffice to say that it is problematic to believe in a “storehouse” of souls.

Oh, and that Jeremiah passage, I believe, has normally been held to refer to God’s foreknowledge, His Plan and intention/will prior to it becoming actualized in time. God being outside time, everything to Him occurs now. So it’s really just saying God intended you, had a plan for you before you were even conceived.

 

[WmJackP]

Is there an authoritative answer? If not, what are some of your thoughts?

What could possibly be an “authoritative answer” to such a question as this?

 

[Maso]

What could possibly be an “authoritative answer” to such a question as this?

There cirtainly is an “authoritative answer” and I said it before. It’s in Jeremiah: 1:5

I’m not trying to be cleaver with words here, Jeremiah: 1:5 is it…! Seriously.

 

[polytropos]

The answer to this question is obvious to me, from Jeremiah: 1:5

The soul is created before conception. How can you argue with that…???

Not exactly. God’s knowing about something does not necessarily imply that it exists. The first reason is that God is outside of time, so God can know about things that, from our perspective, will happen (or, in this case, will come into being). The other reason is that God knows all of the counterfactuals, ie. all of the “what ifs.”

 

[Maso]

Not exactly. God’s knowing about something does not necessarily imply that it exists. The first reason is that God is outside of time, so God can know about things that, from our perspective, will happen (or, in this case, will come into being). The other reason is that God knows all of the counterfactuals, ie. all of the “what ifs.”

You make something simple complicated. Why do you do that…?

 

[polytropos]

You make something simple complicated. Why do you do that…?

All I said is that God is outside of time and knows all of the counterfactuals, so the passage you quoted does not demonstrate that souls exist before conception.

I would not have said anything if you weren’t saying something I disagree with.

 

[zro_x]

I think the declaration on the Immaculate Conception states that Mary was without sin from the time of her conception. This implies that she had a soul at conception since sin is on the soul.

An interesting point, but I think that the case can be made that actual sin is on the soul, and original sin is on the primarily on the body, and passes to the form of the body (or soul) once it inhabbits the body.