When is telling a lie a sin and what kind of sin?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Katherine438
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
K

Katherine438

Guest
I know this might sound like a childish question, and I apologize ahead of time if it is … but I really do need to understand this better.

I recently had to fill out an application for insurance … my insurance agent told me to lie about something on the application … being she told me to, I did.

I couldn’t sleep for weeks based on it, so I finally called the insurance agent and told her I couldn’t live with it, she had to call and tell the insurance company the truth. She thinks I’m insane and thinks that I’m “too honest” … her words … but she did what I asked, and the insurance company was fine with what we told them … apparently it didn’t matter to them.

Now I think I finally did the right thing, and I did already go to confession about it … but it brought up a few questions …

When is telling a lie a sin? Always?

Is it a mortal sin?

Are there times when telling a lie is a venial sin? (Example: Telling your girlfriend you aren’t feeling well and that is why you can’t talk to her right now on the phone for a while??? … instead of hurting her and telling her that you are not in the mood to talk???)

I’ve had occasion to be wondering about these things because of my situation … I’m thankful that I finally told the truth, and confessed what I felt was a sin … but I am wondering about the reality of when one tells a lie.

Thank you for any feedback in advance.
 
Telling a lie is always wrong. In the Catholic context, it is always a sin. You can always tell the truth.
 
Telling lies is always wrong,
but telling lies is not always mortal sin.

Mortal sin requires
Grave Matter (so the lie has to be very serious),
Deliberation
Full Consent of the Will.

Duress (telling the lie under severe pressure or when not telling it
would CAUSE an innocent person to be hurt or completely destroyed, for example)
mitigates the seriousness of any lie, even a serious lie. In such cases,
I have been told that the sin would be venial, even if it were an otherwise-serious
matter.

The 10 Commandments, contrary to popular assumption, do not say
“Thou Shalt Not Ever Tell Any Lie Whatsoever.” (even though lying is always wrong!!).
The Command, actually, is:
"Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor.
What is really commanded here, directly, is slandering or libelling
or harming BY slandering or libelling, another person, whether in daily conversation
or, even more gravely, in a court of law, say by filing false and very serious charges against another person who in reality has done nothing wrong or, like the mafia and
(sometimes) the masons have done, go into a courtroom where a man or woman is on trial for something really grievous, and you get on the Witness Stand and LIE and
claim, for example, that you SAW them commit the murder (for example) that they are accused of, when you never saw any such thing.
Back in bible times, two or three witnesses estabished a matter or accusation against
someone, as fact, and this “proof” very often resulted in the accused person being made a slave or even stoned to death. So bearing false witness against thy neighbor did then,
and still does, have very serious, deadly consequences to the innocent person lied about,
and serious consequences to you and me if we do the lying about them.

So bearing False Witness against an innocent human being is the most DASTARDLY form of lying, well the second-most Dastardly.
The MOST dastardly form of lying is bearing False Witness against God Almighty, His Saints in Heaven, His Angels, then against his Faithful ones on Earth, against the Church, and against anyone else, by degrees.

A popular form of bearing False Witness against God, these days, is when serious sinners who refuse to discipline their wayward passions, such as say, an unrepentant
pedophile, boldly asserts that there is nothing wrong or sinful about what they are doing
because “God instilled these desires into” them. You hear practicing sexual sinners say this all the time: God MADE me with these desires. That is a lie AND it is blasphemy too. Pedophile priests have been known to accuse God of having given THEM those twisted desires, too.

Lying is always wrong. It is not always Mortal Sin. Very Often, it is venial, whereas in some cases, to tell the Truth, IF the truth caused an innocent person to be destroyed, and if you knew in advance you would be destroying an innocent person by revealing the truth, would really be a mortal sin, because knowingly and intentionally harming an INNOCENT person is ALWAYS a Mortal Sin.
Peace.
 
**You can always tell the truth. **

Actually, in some cases, more than we care to realize, no you can’t,
not without seriously harming totally innocent people.
I know personally of situations like this.
It’s nice to believe that God would never ever allow a situation to arise
wherein you would have to choose the “lesser of two evils,”
but these situations arise all the time, despite claims to the contrary. They DO.
Telling a venial lie, while still a sin, is a venial sin,
whereas if by telling the truth you know you would be exposing someone’s
totally innocent family to complete destruction, it would be dastardly to do that
to those people, absolutely dastardly.

We have to choose between “the lesser of two evils” in politics all the time.
I vote pro-Life, and pro-Traditional moral values, because abortion and sexual
immorality, and the deliberate promotion of them or deliberate support of the promotion nf them, is always and everywhere Deadly Sinful.
Yet the pro-Lifer I vote for, for example, may support NO legal protections for
corporate employees and hourly workers whatsoever. I loathe and detest that.
But choosing between reluctantly voting for someone like that,
and voting, knowingly, for someone who supports and promotes Unrestricted
Baby Killing? The answer to THAT is a no-brainer.

Peace, love and happiness,
Jaypeeto4
 
Jaypeeto4 said:
**You can always tell the truth. **

Actually, in some cases, more than we care to realize, no you can’t,
not without seriously harming totally innocent people.
I know personally of situations like this.
It’s nice to believe that God would never ever allow a situation to arise
wherein you would have to choose the “lesser of two evils,”
but these situations arise all the time, despite claims to the contrary. They DO.
Telling a venial lie, while still a sin, is a venial sin,
whereas if by telling the truth you know you would be exposing someone’s
totally innocent family to complete destruction, it would be dastardly to do that
to those people, absolutely dastardly.

We have to choose between “the lesser of two evils” in politics all the time.
I vote pro-Life, and pro-Traditional moral values, because abortion and sexual
immorality, and the deliberate promotion of them or deliberate support of the promotion nf them, is always and everywhere Deadly Sinful.
Yet the pro-Lifer I vote for, for example, may support NO legal protections for
corporate employees and hourly workers whatsoever. I loathe and detest that.
But choosing between reluctantly voting for someone like that,
and voting, knowingly, for someone who supports and promotes Unrestricted
Baby Killing? The answer to THAT is a no-brainer.

Peace, love and happiness,
Jaypeeto4
Click to expand...
You disagree with Kant, who believed that one can always tell the truth.
 
Also, another thought:

There are, we all know,
Sins of Commission, and Sins of Omission.

Some would say that in the situations I have described above, the
easy way which would involve no lying at all, would be to remain totally silent.

Sounds good, but it’s not really true.
If I am asked about something, and tell a venial lie about it,
it is a venial Sin of Commission. I have actually told a (venial) lie. COMMITTED the sin.

If I am asked the same thing, when I know the answer, and remain silent,
I am still Lying, failing to tell the truth, and this is the equally sinful
Sin of OMISSION. Telling a lie by failing to reveal the truth when asked to.

By the way, Our Priests, if summoned to court, are REQUIRED to fail to reveal
the Truth, even in Court, even if Directly Asked, if the truth was told them as a matter
of Sacramental Confession. It’s STILL a refusal, by OMITTING to reveal the truth,
a refusal to tell the truth when asked. But, to violate the Seal of the Confessional would be an Outrageous Sacrilege, a Sacrilege of the First Order, an affront to the Holy Spirit to whom, ultimately, the Sin was actually confessed, and that Priest had better NOT reveal that to anyone, no matter their rank, no matter how insistently they inquire.

So yes, there are two forms of lying, whetherr mortal or venial lying,
and those are lying by Commission, and Lying by Omission.
BOTH are lying.
And in some cases, such as the priest not revealing a Confessed Sin,
the Omission is positively an act of Obedience, even though he is disobeying a solemn command to reveal what he knows and is Omitting to tell the truth to the one(s) making the demand.
This issue is much more complex than we usually realize.
 
**You disagree with Kant, who believed that one can always tell the truth. **

That’s okay. Kant doesn’t have to answer for my Mortal Sins
if by revealing what I know, even when asked to, I knowingly destroy
or gravely harm, innocent people.

Kant was not right about everything, not by a longshot, or
he would be a canonized Catholic Saint.

Kant does not have to answer for MY conscience, I, and I alone, DO.

And I guarantee you, that if Kant were faced with a situation wherein, say,
telling the truth would result in the murder of several of his dearest and innocent friends,
you can be sure he would at the very least refuse (lying by omission) to reveal it,
unless he were, at heart, a Monster.
 
Would love to stay and continue the (stimulating!!!) dialog,
but I have to rush off to work now. God love all of you.
 
Thanks to everyone for the replies … I will keep them in mind going forward.
 
These discussions on lies always end up with someone asserting you can never tell a lie, then after given numerous examples are given, provide ways to use deceit to avoid directly lying. Such loopholes make life easy, no? Don’t lie, just be deceitful!

If you want to cling to the notion of honesty above all else, at least do so on a message board with yourself, and as well by avoiding deceit as a way to avoid lying.

Also, since they will show up, the typical examples given are:

“Honey, does this dress make me look fat?” Truthful answer, “yes, of course, most dresses do.” If that is what you think, why not tell the truth?

Also, invoking “Santa Claus or the the Tooth Fairy” scenarios. “No son, there is no such myth. It’s bogus, and if your classmates ask you if he is real, slam that door tight with a ‘no.’”

Also, invoking the “Nazis looking for prisoners in your home” scenario. “Yes officer, I have three Jews and a handful of Catholics upstairs. What? Oh, third door on the right. And careful, the floor creaks, and the lock some times catches.”

Not to be dismissive of a commandment of lying, but common sense, intent, and prudence will go a long way in life. Lying on an insurance form would to me be an obvious “not acceptable case”, and kudos to the OP for rectifying the situation.
 
Depends on what the insurance is for: if it is your health, then your duty to protect it is greater than your duty to tell the truth.
As several people have said: lying can indeed be noble. Think about it: Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy, protecting innocent people from being harmed, politeness and sparing people’s feelings are all more important than always telling the absolute truth. Justice is more important than truth.
I had to lie to escape an abusive marriage for example. I know what some of you will say: that marriage cannot or should not be ended under any circumstances. But my priest saw what I went through and even he thinks that I will be better off when the divorce comes through. Not only that but God himself gave me one or two subtle hints that week about leaving. In some situations, people do what is necessary for survival.
 
Lying is defined as Hiding the truth from those who ought to know

So for example if nazis came to your house and asked if you knew where any Jews or blacks were you could say no If you knew.

Also the Jesuit equivocal art of denying something is a valid way of nearly lying ( I’ve read about it being used in the English reformation and it being used by father pacwa )

Shalom
God bless
 
Katherine438 said:
I know this might sound like a childish question, and I apologize ahead of time if it is … but I really do need to understand this better.

I recently had to fill out an application for insurance … my insurance agent told me to lie about something on the application … being she told me to, I did.

I couldn’t sleep for weeks based on it, so I finally called the insurance agent and told her I couldn’t live with it, she had to call and tell the insurance company the truth. She thinks I’m insane and thinks that I’m “too honest” … her words … but she did what I asked, and the insurance company was fine with what we told them … apparently it didn’t matter to them.

Now I think I finally did the right thing, and I did already go to confession about it … but it brought up a few questions …

When is telling a lie a sin? Always?

Is it a mortal sin?

Are there times when telling a lie is a venial sin? (Example: Telling your girlfriend you aren’t feeling well and that is why you can’t talk to her right now on the phone for a while??? … instead of hurting her and telling her that you are not in the mood to talk???)

I’ve had occasion to be wondering about these things because of my situation … I’m thankful that I finally told the truth, and confessed what I felt was a sin … but I am wondering about the reality of when one tells a lie.

Thank you for any feedback in advance.
Click to expand...
Without examining the other responses, here are my first thoughts on the subject.

When the issue is one where there is clearly an objective “true” and “false,” as with your insurance forms, to lie is clearly an offense against the truth and therefore a sin (venial or mortal). But in social situations, let’s just admit that things are a lot more murky. If you are not in a mood to talk, and so you tell the person something vague like you’re not feeling well, is that really a lie? You really are NOT feeling well about talking. It would be a lie to say you are sick with the flu when you’re healthy, but a vague enough response is not a lie. In fact, using these social niceties (i.e. being polite) can even be an act of charity, and it could be a sin to be brutally explicit about what you think you are feeling at a moment. Also, when it comes to moods, emotions, and so forth, it’s not always easy to read one’s own heart! So nobody expects precision, and a lack of precision is not the same as a lie.

Remember that the commandment is not “You shall not lie,” but rather “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” There’s a difference. For example, you can say something that is not true in certain circumstances, such as when telling a story to an audience that knows it’s fiction. And in some social situations, again, people don’t always expect the whole truth. When they ask “How are you?” they usually don’t want your recent medical and emotional history. The answer “Fine” does not mean “I feel just fantastic,” it means “I have nothing to say about how I feel.” Everybody knows this, so it’s not a lie, it’s a code.
 
stiffkittenbabe said:
Depends on what the insurance is for: if it is your health, then your duty to protect it is greater than your duty to tell the truth.
As several people have said: lying can indeed be noble. Think about it: Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy, protecting innocent people from being harmed, politeness and sparing people’s feelings are all more important than always telling the absolute truth. Justice is more important than truth.
I had to lie to escape an abusive marriage for example. I know what some of you will say: that marriage cannot or should not be ended under any circumstances. But my priest saw what I went through and even he thinks that I will be better off when the divorce comes through. Not only that but God himself gave me one or two subtle hints that week about leaving. In some situations, people do what is necessary for survival.
Click to expand...
What you are saying goes against the teachings of the Church. Telling a lie is morally different from not telling the truth, one can be silent about the truth but one cannot intentionally say falsities. You say that justice is more important than truth and that is not correct, justice is subordinate to truth.
 
Lying is clearly unethical generally, because it undermines trust between individuals. It also erodes a person’s credibility in situations where truth-telling is essential for a mechanism to operate effectively (e.g. in court, where true testimony is an integral element in the search for the truth of a matter. Christians are instructed by Holy Scripture “not to lie to one another”, since this belongs to the fallen human nature, not to “the new man (or woman) in Christ” (Colossians 3:9)

However, in a small minority of cases, concealing the truth and misdirecting others can actually be a virtue. The writer to the Hebrews (11:31) tells us that the prostitute Rahab (an ancestor of Our Lord) acted rightly, and in faith, when she welcomed the Hebrew spies at Jericho. However, her conduct involved the telling of a lie (see Joshua Ch. 2). The best explanation of this which I have heard is that the Christian is under no obligation to tell the truth to wicked men (Rahab misled the Jericho ‘police’ about the spies, in a way similar to that which the saviours of the Jews adopted under Nazi rule, when they were hiding the ‘enemies of the state’). One has to be careful not to apply this to oneself however - Jesus made clear in Luke 12:9 that one should be careful not to disown Him before men, or the Son of Man would disown that person before the angels of God. So, one could argue that lying to protect oneself is not included in this, since it could run the risk of committing the sin of denying Christ (isn’t the Lord gracious to have forgiven Peter a mortal sin in this respect?). So then, lying to avoid martyrdom is clearly wrong.:cool:
 
Ginkgo100 said:
Without examining the other responses, here are my first thoughts on the subject.

When the issue is one where there is clearly an objective “true” and “false,” as with your insurance forms, to lie is clearly an offense against the truth and therefore a sin (venial or mortal). But in social situations, let’s just admit that things are a lot more murky. If you are not in a mood to talk, and so you tell the person something vague like you’re not feeling well, is that really a lie? You really are NOT feeling well about talking. It would be a lie to say you are sick with the flu when you’re healthy, but a vague enough response is not a lie. In fact, using these social niceties (i.e. being polite) can even be an act of charity, and it could be a sin to be brutally explicit about what you think you are feeling at a moment. Also, when it comes to moods, emotions, and so forth, it’s not always easy to read one’s own heart! So nobody expects precision, and a lack of precision is not the same as a lie.

Remember that the commandment is not “You shall not lie,” but rather “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” There’s a difference. For example, you can say something that is not true in certain circumstances, such as when telling a story to an audience that knows it’s fiction. And in some social situations, again, people don’t always expect the whole truth. When they ask “How are you?” they usually don’t want your recent medical and emotional history. The answer “Fine” does not mean “I feel just fantastic,” it means “I have nothing to say about how I feel.” Everybody knows this, so it’s not a lie, it’s a code.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much … you have answered my question. 🙂
 
I’m familiar with the OP’s insurance case. Admitting a pre-existing condition resulted in being rejected for one insurance plan, and needing to take another that was hundreds of dollars more. But I couldn’t live with my conscience if I told a “lie by omission”, despite the fact that others with the same condition thought I was rather crazy.

It’s harder not to lie or even run and hide when your emotions are hot and you are faced with a decision that needs to be made immediately. I’ve had problems with that.
 
aragonjohn1 said:
Lying is defined as Hiding the truth from those who ought to know
Click to expand...
This is a very interesting definition. Although I’ve seen dozens of threads on this subject, I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a succinct reply.

Can you (or anyone) cite some authority on this? It seems reasonable at first blush but I need to think about it more.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top