When is the death penalty justified?

[jmcrae]

No prison is secure when the guards know their families can be killed at any time.

And we can never be sure the guards aren’t under that threat – and afraid to tell us.

If the prisoners couldn’t get out (ie: put locks on the outsides of the doors, and then don’t open them) this would not be an issue, since the prisoners would not be able to get weapons, nor go to anyone’s house and threaten their family.

This whole thing where prisoners can wander around is just stupid, and it’s the reason that so many people are calling for the death penalty - because when prisoners can wander around, then what is the point of even having a prison, in the first place?

 

[Ray_Scheel]

Soemthing is seriously the matter with a prison where lifers have opportunities to communicate with the outside world, and where they have access to weapons.

Being able to communicate with the outside world is part of Catholic moral teaching regarding the proper treatment of prisoners with a far broader and richer history than the recent (and totally unsubstantiated) claims that modern prison technology has made the death penalty effectively unnecessary (and that those things can be done without bankrupting the government in charge of the prisons run in that way).

In other words, one can’t reconcile Catholic moral teaching on how prisoners should be treated with the steps one would have to take to fulfill JP II’s claim that the use of the death penalty has obsolesced. From a logical perspective, it is simply not possible to reconcile the two, and the theologians saying the DP is no longer necessary have made a remarkable silence when asked by those familiar with running prison how exactly that fantasy they claim should be implemented practically.

 

[whatevergirl]

If the prisoners couldn’t get out (ie: put locks on the outsides of the doors, and then don’t open them) this would not be an issue, since the prisoners would not be able to get weapons, nor go to anyone’s house and threaten their family.

This whole thing where prisoners can wander around is just stupid, and it’s the reason that so many people are calling for the death penalty - because when prisoners can wander around, then what is the point of even having a prison, in the first place?

where are they wandering? outside of the prison? ha They shouldn’t be caged all day like animals…actually animals might be treated better. The problem with our modern day correctional facilities, is that they do not teach these men and women about rehabilitating their lives. Put into cages with other people often times…23 hours per day doesn’t correct behavior…it worsens it. Then, letting these same caged people out into society…we expect them to have learned something. I don’t believe in coddling and giving prisoners special rights, but I also don’t believe in incarcerating people with no plan to rehabilitate them–or at least strive to. The death penalty doesn’t work–if it did…we wouldn’t still need it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

where are they wandering? outside of the prison? ha They shouldn’t be caged all day like animals…actually animals might be treated better. The problem with our modern day correctional facilities, is that they do not teach these men and women about rehabilitating their lives. Put into cages with other people often times…23 hours per day doesn’t correct behavior…it worsens it. Then, letting these same caged people out into society…we expect them to have learned something. I don’t believe in coddling and giving prisoners special rights, but I also don’t believe in incarcerating people with no plan to rehabilitate them–or at least strive to. The death penalty doesn’t work–if it did…we wouldn’t still need it.

Nothing else works, either --if it did…we wouldn’t still need it.

I keep coming back to Dr. LeBlanc – you can’t re-habilitate a man who was never habilitated to begin with.

The thing that comes closest to working is incapacitation – you lock up violent criminals and keep them locked up until they’re too old to commit more violent crimes. But even then, you need the ultimate deterrent to keep them from taking over the prisons.

 

[whatevergirl]

Nothing else works, either --if it did…we wouldn’t still need it.

I keep coming back to Dr. LeBlanc – you can’t re-habilitate a man who was never habilitated to begin with.

The thing that comes closest to working is incapacitation – you lock up violent criminals and keep them locked up until they’re too old to commit more violent crimes. But even then, you need the ultimate deterrent to keep them from taking over the prisons.

Hi vern–I keep bumping into you on here.
I keep coming back to how Jesus asked His followers to visit people in prison…perhaps, it is love that these men and women lack. Again–not for coddling and giving special rights…they need to pay hard time for the crimes they committed…however, to treat them with absolutely no dignity…to treat them as though they are incapable of rehabilitation truly does not work. It just doesn’t…if it did…our prisons wouldn’t be FILLED TO THE GILLS with repeat offenders.:ehh:

 

[AndyF]

Tellme my rites:

When incarceration can not be guaranteed to protect the public.

AndyF

 

[whatevergirl]

Incarceration can be guaranteed to protect the public…it’s the short sentences for dangerous criminals that is damaging to the public. Many truly should have life sentences, yet don’t…so they get out…and repeat their crimes. It’s not lack of incarceration…it’s the wrong sentences for violent offenders. Just my thoughts.

 

[childofmary1143]

My experience with the penal system is on the training side. But that has opened my eyes to what really goes on in prison.

Prisoners do kill other prisoners. Prisoners do kill Corrections Officers. Prisoners do operate dangerous criminal enterprises from prison – including ordering the murder of people on the outside.

Imagine you are a warden, and you learn that an inmate just gave a photograph to one of your Corrections Officers. The photograph shows that Corrections Officers’ 6-year old daughter playing in her back yard.

1. What do you do about it?
2. What is the status of your prison?

Those are rhetorical questions. You are no longer in charge of the prison – the inmates are. The Corrections Officer in question now works for the inmate who showed him the photograph (how can he not, with his 6-year old daughter at stake?) You have no idea how many other Corrections Officers have been compromised in this manner, or in other ways and are also working for the inmates.

1. What can be done to protect your Corrections Officers and their families from prisoners who are already serving multiple life sentences and have nothing to lose by another murder – or a dozen murders?
2. How can police officers, judges, juries and prosecutors be protected when people already serving multiple life sentences decide to have them killed?
3. If Corrections Officers, police, judges, juries and prosecutors can be cowed by people in prison, how can society function?

Thank you Vern for that very INSIGHTFUL post. However I am hoping you can answer a question I got. If an inmate shows a photo of a Corrections Officer 6 year old daughter I would like to know that the photo was taken by someone on the outside and passed to the inmate. Surely all meetings with inmates and outsiders are video taped and it would show who exchanged what with whom? From that couldn’t you determine who to go after??

 

[vern_humphrey]

Hi vern–I keep bumping into you on here.
I keep coming back to how Jesus asked His followers to visit people in prison…perhaps, it is love that these men and women lack.

I take it you’ve never been in a prison.

Richard Pryor used to have a shtic – “I’ve been going around to the prisons, visiting the Brothers the Man has locked up. And I’ve got just one thing to say – thank God we’ve got prisons!”

Again–not for coddling and giving special rights…they need to pay hard time for the crimes they committed…however, to treat them with absolutely no dignity…to treat them as though they are incapable of rehabilitation truly does not work. It just doesn’t…if it did…our prisons wouldn’t be FILLED TO THE GILLS with repeat offenders.:ehh:

Tell me what does work – and prove it by showing that our prisons aren’t FILLED TO THE GILLS with repeat offenders.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thank you Vern for that very INSIGHTFUL post. However I am hoping you can answer a question I got. If an inmate shows a photo of a Corrections Officer 6 year old daughter I would like to know that the photo was taken by someone on the outside and passed to the inmate.

We have some people on these forums who have worked as Corrections Officers. Let them explain why you can’t find out how he got the photo.

But part of the problem is you don’t know how many Corrections Officers have been compromised like this. You don’t know if this particular Corrections Officer is the first or the hundredth.

No security system works if the people who run it are compromised into working against it.
childofmary1143;2391497:

Surely all meetings with inmates and outsiders are video taped and it would show who exchanged what with whom? From that couldn’t you determine who to go after??

You’d videotape a meeting between an inmate and his lawyer? Between an inmate and his confessor or spiritual advisor?

How long do you think courts would let you get away with that?

 

[Ray_Scheel]

Surely all meetings with inmates and outsiders are video taped and it would show who exchanged what with whom? From that couldn’t you determine who to go after??

What if it was smuggled into the inmate by an employee through other inmates along the way. Or left in a special place in the fields (say, a hollow in a fencepost near the edge of a field) where a member of a work crew could smuggle it in. Or passed through another inmate at visitation months previously and held on to for long enough where the hand-off wasn’t going to be on recent tapes (and who is going to pay all the overtime to go review the tapes, anyway). Or even sent to another inmate purporting to be a family picture for them to have? Its not at all a simple thing to control and track

 

[jmcrae]

Its not at all a simple thing to control and track

Why in the world not?

Why are airports and train stations more secure than prisons?

 

[Ray_Scheel]

Why in the world not?

Why are airports and train stations more secure than prisons?

Where I am, the success rates of people compromising airport security and reporting it make the typical prison look relatively safe in comparison. We might not stop the flow of blackmail and messages, but there is a lot less chance than an inmate is armed compared to someone else in an airport terminal…

 

[jmcrae]

Where I am, the success rates of people compromising airport security and reporting it make the typical prison look relatively safe in comparison. We might not stop the flow of blackmail and messages, but there is a lot less chance than an inmate is armed compared to someone else in an airport terminal…

Well, the way some people in this thread are talking, it seems as though all of the prisoners have guns and knives, and are basically running the joint (to coin a phrase …).

Otherwise, how could they go around threatening the guards and their families?

 

[Ray_Scheel]

Otherwise, how could they go around threatening the guards and their families?

Sticking the security point I commented on: What is your solution (without bankrupting the government responsible) for stopping the flow of information to a point sufficient to prevent blackmail or continuing to run criminal enterprises back and forth through the gates while still granting inmates the rights held by Catholic teaching on the treatment of prisoners?

Are you entirely missing that blackmail is nearly invisible, or is this posturing deliberate to try to gloss over the challenges in reconciling how prison populations operate versus the claims that the death penalty is no longer necessary?

 

[jmcrae]

Are you entirely missing that blackmail is nearly invisible, or is this posturing deliberate to try to gloss over the challenges in reconciling how prison populations operate versus the claims that the death penalty is no longer necessary?

If the blackmailing is invisible, then how do you know who to give the death penalty to, when you receive the ability to do that?

Or what is the point of the argument about all of this invisible activity? If they aren’t going to get caught with regard to being put in solitary, then they aren’t going to get caught with regard to the death penalty, either.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Why in the world not?

Why are airports and train stations more secure than prisons?

First of all, airports and train stations are not more secure than prisons.

Secondly, airports and train stations are not 100% occupied by dangerous, violent felons who have nothing to do all day but figure out ways around the security system – and nothing to lose if an attempt to circumvent security fails.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If the blackmailing is invisible, then how do you know who to give the death penalty to, when you receive the ability to do that?

Huh?

You give the death penalty for murder, not for blackmail

Or what is the point of the argument about all of this invisible activity? If they aren’t going to get caught with regard to being put in solitary, then they aren’t going to get caught with regard to the death penalty, either.

You minimize the blackmail potential by making it fatal to the inmate if he kills someone.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Well, the way some people in this thread are talking, it seems as though all of the prisoners have guns and knives, and are basically running the joint (to coin a phrase …).

I suggest a visit to a prison after lights out. You’ll hear an odd noise, sort of a SHHH, SHHH.

That’s inmantes making knives. They make them out of anything, from toothbrush handles to bits of scrap metal.

Otherwise, how could they go around threatening the guards and their families?

It’s the people outside the prison who take the pictures and threaten the families – they are allies, fellow gang members or subordinates of the inmates.

An enormous amount of criminal activity on the outside is controlled by people in prison.

 

[whatevergirl]

I take it you’ve never been in a prison.

Richard Pryor used to have a shtic – “I’ve been going around to the prisons, visiting the Brothers the Man has locked up. And I’ve got just one thing to say – thank God we’ve got prisons!”

Tell me what does work – and prove it by showing that our prisons aren’t FILLED TO THE GILLS with repeat offenders.

I follow what Pope JP2 stated…that the death penalty should be used in extreme cases…I think that there is an arrogance that man should remove another man because he crossed this or that line. I don’t think we should take lives, unless our lives are in danger…and therefore we are defending ourselves. Jails are designed to protect the public from harm…I don’t think that killing people …eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth accomplishes anything.

Look at Iraq–they follow that principle. You steal, you get your hand sliced off…you rape, you get…well, you know. So, does it work there? They look rather depraved to me.

I challenge you to show my how the DP helps society?
Jesus came to teach a new principle.

I have not been to a prison, no. btw.