When is the death penalty justified?

[Ray_Scheel]

If they aren’t going to get caught with regard to being put in solitary, then they aren’t going to get caught with regard to the death penalty, either.

Being put in solitary does not remove their rights to contact with the outside world. Again, if you have a solution for this that does not violate Catholic moral teaching on the treatment of inmates, I’m all ears, but I’ve got a suspicion you don’t want to reconcile the parts of Catholic teaching on this that are consistent and logically coherent with the recent claims made by JP II and other that presumes a radical change in prison technology that no one in the prison industry is aware of.

In the world I live on and am speaking about, the death penalty, once carried out, is 100% effective in permanently neutralizing someone who has continued to present a danger to society even after being incarcerated. At that point, there is no further need to “catch” that particular inmate doing so. QED

 

[vern_humphrey]

I follow what Pope JP2 stated…that the death penalty should be used in extreme cases…I think that there is an arrogance that man should remove another man because he crossed this or that line. I don’t think we should take lives, unless our lives are in danger…and therefore we are defending ourselves. Jails are designed to protect the public from harm…I don’t think that killing people …eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth accomplishes anything.

The death penalty is needed to protect Corrections Officers and their families, police and their families, judges, prosecutors and jurors.

Look at Iraq–they follow that principle. You steal, you get your hand sliced off…you rape, you get…well, you know. So, does it work there? They look rather depraved to me.

No, Iraq doesn’t – that’s Sharia Law, and Iraq is not under Sharia Law and hasn’t been since it was formed in 1920.

I challenge you to show my how the DP helps society?

By protecting those who protect society.

Jesus came to teach a new principle.

And He, Himself, submitted to the death penalty. It was part of the Divine Plan.

I have not been to a prison, no. btw.

I suggest you would find it is nothing like you imagine.

 

[whatevergirl]

I suggest a visit to a prison after lights out. You’ll hear an odd noise, sort of a SHHH, SHHH.

That’s inmantes making knives. They make them out of anything, from toothbrush handles to bits of scrap metal.

It’s the people outside the prison who take the pictures and threaten the families – they are allies, fellow gang members or subordinates of the inmates.

An enormous amount of criminal activity on the outside is controlled by people in prison.

I have watched many prison ducomentaries…to me, it is likened to a Hell on earth, frankly. I submit to you though, to imagine growing up the way they did…and not everyone makes the right choices…so they land in prison. I don’t think we should throw away these people…they need help. Some are mentally ill and shouldn’t even be in prison, to be honest. But, I do believe that if given the proper programs…some …many can be saved. There are boot camp type prisons that have been very effective, that I’ve read about in the past…so, throw 6 murderers or rapists in the same cell, and tell them to behave all day…is insane.

Have u ever seen the movie Murder in the First? It’s about Alcatraz, Kevin Bacon stars as Henry something…can’t think of the man’s last name…true story whereby Henry basically stole 5 dollars, and then gets sent to Alcatraz. He then attempts to escape with a few other inmates, and gets caught…then…he gets put into solitary for nearly 3 years, I believe it was. He turned from a kind man…to a depraved animal…

I don’t like the coldness in this thread on this subject. I can’t judge why people land in jail…I can only say that the death penalty cannot be justified by me…I’m Catholic, and if I abhor abortion…I think I should detest this, as well.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

I suggest a visit to a prison after lights out. You’ll hear an odd noise, sort of a SHHH, SHHH.

That’s inmantes making knives. They make them out of anything, from toothbrush handles to bits of scrap metal.

Though I’m thinking some folks will still miss the distinction (and the risks), it might help other readers to refer to the homemade stabbing tools as shanks instead of knives.

These are not things with handles and sheaths carried openly, but (small thin) ordinary items that have been modified to try to make them more useful in injuring or killing another, and hidden until the second they are used.

 

[whatevergirl]

The death penalty is needed to protect Corrections Officers and their families, police and their families, judges, prosecutors and jurors.

No, Iraq doesn’t – that’s Sharia Law, and Iraq is not under Sharia Law and hasn’t been since it was formed in 1920.

By protecting those who protect society.

And He, Himself, submitted to the death penalty. It was part of the Divine Plan.

I suggest you would find it is nothing like you imagine.

If you want the DP, it is your choice. It’s not up to us to decide who should live and die…no matter what that person has done.

 

[whatevergirl]

Though I’m thinking some folks will still miss the distinction (and the risks), it might help other readers to refer to the homemade stabbing tools as shanks instead of knives.

These are not things with handles and sheaths carried openly, but (small thin) ordinary items that have been modified to try to make them more useful in injuring or killing another, and hidden until the second they are used.

so everyone who constructs a shank…and uses it perhaps…should be put to death? I guess no one wants rehabilitation…even the striving of it, is hardly discussed on here.

 

[whatevergirl]

As long as humans continue to kill one another…our world will continue to fall into the evil one’s hands. Death penalty, abortion, and euthanasia all make the culture of death.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I have watched many prison ducomentaries…to me, it is likened to a Hell on earth, frankly. I submit to you though, to imagine growing up the way they did…and not everyone makes the right choices…so they land in prison.

You really need to go to a prison and see what sort of people we’re talking about.

I don’t think we should throw away these people…they need help. Some are mentally ill and shouldn’t even be in prison, to be honest. But, I do believe that if given the proper programs…some …many can be saved.

Then you should apply for a job with the Bureau of Prisons and show them how.

There are boot camp type prisons that have been very effective, that I’ve read about in the past…

There is no proof whatsoever that “boot camp” type prisons work. It was simply an expensive fad that made some people a lot of money.

so, throw 6 murderers or rapists in the same cell, and tell them to behave all day…is insane.

Again, you should apply for a job with the Bureau of Prisons and show them how it should be done.

Have u ever seen the movie Murder in the First? It’s about Alcatraz, Kevin Bacon stars as Henry something…can’t think of the man’s last name…true story whereby Henry basically stole 5 dollars, and then gets sent to Alcatraz. He then attempts to escape with a few other inmates, and gets caught…then…he gets put into solitary for nearly 3 years, I believe it was. He turned from a kind man…to a depraved animal…

I hate to tell you this, but movies aren’t real.

I don’t like the coldness in this thread on this subject. I can’t judge why people land in jail…

Before making any judgement at all, why don’t you go visit a prison? Get a job in a prison. See what sort of people you’re dealing with…

I can only say that the death penalty cannot be justified by me…I’m Catholic, and if I abhor abortion…I think I should detest this, as well.

Remember, when an innocent person is killed by a criminal, that’s just as much a failure as when a guilty person is executed.

So how come you detest murder less than executions?

 

[Ray_Scheel]

Some are mentally ill and shouldn’t even be in prison, to be honest. But, I do believe that if given the proper programs…some …many can be saved.

I don’t think this sentiment is disputed by the majority on either side of whether or not the use of the Death Penalty has been obsolesced by advances in prison technology. In response to a question I see you suggest in a later post, yes, how to better rehabilitate those who do not keep trying to run deadly criminal enterprises inside is really an entirely separate thread topic, very little of that relates to securing prisons against the gang / mob problems and those who are not interested in rehabilitating.

I don’t like the coldness in this thread on this subject. I can’t judge why people land in jail…I can only say that the death penalty cannot be justified by me…I’m Catholic, and if I abhor abortion…I think I should detest this, as well.

Perhaps, and I would even agree that the death penalty is over applied in many jurisdictions. But if someone already in prison creates a shank and uses it in an act that appears to be a gang hit or against someone on staff, we are in fact dealing with a very cold individual, and it is CATHOLIC TEACHING that draws a distinction between the just application of the death penalty and never justifiable things like abortion and euthanasia (and there is plenty of authoritative material making that distinction so I don’t see a need to repeat it here).

 

[whatevergirl]

You really need to go to a prison and see what sort of people we’re talking about.

Then you should apply for a job with the Bureau of Prisons and show them how.

There is no proof whatsoever that “boot camp” type prisons work. It was simply an expensive fad that made some people a lot of money.

Again, you should apply for a job with the Bureau of Prisons and show them how it should be done.

I hate to tell you this, but movies aren’t real.

Before making any judgement at all, why don’t you go visit a prison? Get a job in a prison. See what sort of people you’re dealing with…

Remember, when an innocent person is killed by a criminal, that’s just as much a failure as when a guilty person is executed.

So how come you detest murder less than executions?

I equate them on the same level…murder and execution. My reasoning? Here’s an example…In firing squads for example…when one is being put to death, or has been put to death…they have 6 or 8 men fire at the criminal, so as no one shooter feels that his bullet was the mortally wounding one.

Hmmmm…it’s funny, but one can see that even a prison system…has a conscience. Albeit, a little too late.

 

[whatevergirl]

You really need to go to a prison and see what sort of people we’re talking about.

Then you should apply for a job with the Bureau of Prisons and show them how.

There is no proof whatsoever that “boot camp” type prisons work. It was simply an expensive fad that made some people a lot of money.

Again, you should apply for a job with the Bureau of Prisons and show them how it should be done.

I hate to tell you this, but movies aren’t real.

Before making any judgement at all, why don’t you go visit a prison? Get a job in a prison. See what sort of people you’re dealing with…

Remember, when an innocent person is killed by a criminal, that’s just as much a failure as when a guilty person is executed.

So how come you detest murder less than executions?

Movies aren’t real? what?

Please…don’t condescend me vern. I don’t do that to you, so please…I’m not stupid.

 

[whatevergirl]

You really need to go to a prison and see what sort of people we’re talking about.

Then you should apply for a job with the Bureau of Prisons and show them how.

There is no proof whatsoever that “boot camp” type prisons work. It was simply an expensive fad that made some people a lot of money.

Again, you should apply for a job with the Bureau of Prisons and show them how it should be done.

I hate to tell you this, but movies aren’t real.

Before making any judgement at all, why don’t you go visit a prison? Get a job in a prison. See what sort of people you’re dealing with…

Remember, when an innocent person is killed by a criminal, that’s just as much a failure as when a guilty person is executed.

So how come you detest murder less than executions?

I have a brother in law, and sister in law who work in prisons…and in juvenile homes. They tell me first hand of the horrors of that life. They do say …that the guards are not that far from being behind the bars themselves, in some cases.

 

[whatevergirl]

As long as humans continue to kill one another…our world will continue to fall into the evil one’s hands. Death penalty, abortion, and euthanasia all make the culture of death.

since it went ignored… …it bears repeating.

g’night for now.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

since it went ignored… …it bears repeating.

“Death penalty, abortion, and euthanasia all make the culture of death.”

In Catholic teaching there is a difference, and in logical discussion, that lumping together of a different things with two similar things and calling them all the same is what would be called a “false equivalence”. Others have also pointed out that distinction previous times the false equivalence has been posed in this very thread, and thus far the reaction I’ve seen by those who make that claim has been to pointedly ignore the parts of the catechism that clearly contradict it…

 

[whatevergirl]

In Catholic teaching there is a difference, and in logical discussion, that lumping together of a different things with two similar things and calling them all the same is what would be called a “false equivalence”. Others have also pointed out that distinction previous times the false equivalence has been posed in this very thread, and thus far the reaction I’ve seen by those who make that claim has been to pointedly ignore the parts of the catechism that clearly contradict it…

In may prior parish, we were asked as members of the RCC, to sign a petition abolishing the DP in PA…this was an initiative started by Pope JP2. My husband and I signed it. I am unclear as to why such a petition would have gone around, if Pope JP2 was accepting of it. In rare instances, yes…but it was being used far more than that in PA. So…perhaps Pope JP2 wanted change. Again…why was such a petition handed out in my church??

 

[whatevergirl]

In Catholic teaching there is a difference, and in logical discussion, that lumping together of a different things with two similar things and calling them all the same is what would be called a “false equivalence”. Others have also pointed out that distinction previous times the false equivalence has been posed in this very thread, and thus far the reaction I’ve seen by those who make that claim has been to pointedly ignore the parts of the catechism that clearly contradict it…

and I do recognize the difference between killing babies…killing our elderly simply because we want them out of the way…and that of executing a criminal. But, it’s funny…we don’t use murder when we speak of execution, and yet we use it when speaking of abortion. Let God be the Judge…a life is a life. I would not want to be the person pulling the lever so to speak…I’m not sure I could ‘justify’ that to God.

 

[whatevergirl]

It’s easy to sit where we sit, and justify it…but if we were charged with pulling the preverbial levers…or injecting someone with a poisonous needle…would we go to Confession over it? If it’s justfiable…then I suppose the answer would be no.

But, I know that I would have a hard time living with myself, had I ‘executed’ someone. You might ask yourself…would you go to Confession? If so…then you view it as murder.

I see a circle forming…and I must go to bed now…thanks for chatting.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Forgive your enemies, but don’t give them the keys to your car.

In the case of capital punishment, interested folks should google to Avery Cardinal Dulles who has written extensively on this topic. He gave a speech and it may be available for viewing. I will try to post his Web site. And here it is… ratzingerfanclub.com/Dulles/dulles_online.html

[Cardinal Dulles got promoted from priest to Cardinal in one jump by virtue of his writing skills.]

In short, the death penalty is justified when a prisoner has been found to be a danger to other prisoners, to the guards and to the public. Some prisoners are capable of killing even when on “death row”. Being locked up does not protect the innocent in their cases, and when enough innocent people have been murdered, then the state is justified in taking their lives to prevent further deaths.

Under the current system of “civil rights”, prisoners may NOT be locked up 24/7/365 with no communication to the outside. If that were the case, then the innocent MIGHT be secure. But they have to be let out an hour a day for exercise and they have contact with the guards against whom the prisoners delight in launching attacks.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

But, it’s funny…we don’t use murder when we speak of execution, and yet we use it when speaking of abortion.

If you were totally unfamiliar with the theological differences between society exacting just punishment on the guilty versus unjustly takign the life of an innocent, then perhaps failing to use the word “murder” in the first situation really would seem odd. But you are aware of the differences between those things, so I’m not sure what you find “funny” about using the proper term in the proper context.

In may prior parish, we were asked as members of the RCC, to sign a petition abolishing the DP in PA…this was an initiative started by Pope JP2. My husband and I signed it. I am unclear as to why such a petition would have gone around, if Pope JP2 was accepting of it. In rare instances, yes…but it was being used far more than that in PA. So…perhaps Pope JP2 wanted change. Again…why was such a petition handed out in my church??

Why do some churches have liturgical dancers used in inappropriate ways? Armies of regularily scheduled EMHCs? Sermons permitting use of birth control or soft pedaling abortion? It is a similar answer all the way around: personal agendas being used as justification to cloud actual church instruction.

 

[AndyF]

Incarceration can be guaranteed to protect the public…it’s the short sentences for dangerous criminals that is damaging to the public. Many truly should have life sentences, yet don’t…so they get out…and repeat their crimes. It’s not lack of incarceration…it’s the wrong sentences for violent offenders. Just my thoughts.

True.

And I’m also against tormenting post offenders who are on the outside by someone else’s decision. I find some white collar crimes are very damaging to society, and these people are seen as celebreties for accomplishing the crime without the use of knives and guns. That needs to be addressed as well.

AndyF