When is the death penalty justified?

[Sheeniac]

Do you have a source for that?

I am safe walking to and from Church at night, in the downtown of a city of one million. (Of course, very few of my neighbors are Caucasian. It might be a different story in the suburbs.)

How about in the States? Is it equally safe to walk at night downtown?

Depends on the city, and where in the city. In many areas in Chicago and NYC, I have walked without fear late at night. Some areas have scared me while driving in my car early on a Saturday morning.

MS-13 - google just that - it will scare you. In it, we’re dealing with a completely different mindset. And it’s starting to spread north (in the US). It may be awhile until it hits Canada, but it will.

 

[Sheeniac]

I have said this throughout the thread…perhaps it would behoove you to go back and read my posts. I have always been for mercy over the DP. To say that I think otherwise, shows me you didn’t really read my posts. And the Pope speaks for the whole world…and Pope JP2 speaks for extreme cases, that it shouldbe used. Again, please reread – as I have said just this.

I did read your posts. However, it seemed to me that you have come out firmly against the death penalty in some posts, and not against it in others. Online postings are very open to miscommunication and misinterpretation.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

No, I don’t have a detailed plan.

If you know you don’t have such a plan, and don’t know who does, why did you claim there actually were ways that do not include the DP as part of the package?

Do you have a detailed plan for when and how to implement the death penalty in such a way that it acts as a deterrent, rather than as an after-the-fact event?

??? Aside from you, who is claiming the deterrent effect of using the DP should be 100% effective at preventing the actions that incur the penalty in the first place? I’ve never made this crazy claim you present, thus I have no obligation to defend it. (I also reject your self-serving re-defining of what “deterrence” means as used in the challenge)

Texas has the death penalty, but they are still building prisons.

Adding prison capacity at a rate slower than the rate of population growth over time indicates something is working, and the per capita homicide rate did drop immediately after the prior court imposed moratorium on carrying out executions was lifted.

 

[whatevergirl]

Then whenever a Corrections Officer, a police officer, a judge, a prosecutor, or a member of their families are killed, you must accept that you are guilty of those murders – because you failed to protect them.

I recommend you read the Army manual on the subject – multiple shooters are used to ensure at least one bullet kills the condemned man cleanly.

You’ve never been in a prison, but you pass judgement on those who work there every day. That’s not very Christian of you.

I’m not passing judgement. Forgive me if it seemed that way. That was not my intent.

I am not sure of your motivation here vern…is it to berate? Is it to pass judgement on anyone and everyone who doesn’t agree with you? I believe in mercy. You should try it some time, maybe our prisons need more of that, and they will be better off. And so will society. The death penalty promotes death…it doesn’t reduce crime. If we kill…because someone has killed…how does society learn from that?

 

[whatevergirl]

I did read your posts. However, it seemed to me that you have come out firmly against the death penalty in some posts, and not against it in others. Online postings are very open to miscommunication and misinterpretation.

No…I’m against it…I do know though that the CCC does make some ‘disclaimers’ for extreme cases…lack of a better word. But, I don’t mean to appear wishy washy whatsoever…I don’t believe in it, personally…thanks for your note.

 

[estesbob]

Never.

Vern: I start my job a prison guard next week

 

[jmcrae]

If you know you don’t have such a plan, and don’t know who does, why did you claim there actually were ways that do not include the DP as part of the package?

I know that the USA is the only industrialized nation that still has the death penalty, and I also know that the USA is famous for its high crime rates and gang activities.

Countries that don’t have the death penalty, by contrast, somehow manage to have safe streets. I’m sure the means for doing so is publicly available to those who are interested in making a career out of this kind of work. I’m sure your prison officials are already more aware of these techniques than I am, and just have reasons of their own for not wanting to implement them.

I know that we resisted getting rid of the death penalty here, too, out of fear that suddenly the streets would be overrun with criminals. It didn’t happen.

 

[LJN21]

No…I’m against it…I do know though that the CCC does make some ‘disclaimers’ for extreme cases…lack of a better word. But, I don’t mean to appear wishy washy whatsoever…I don’t believe in it, personally…thanks for your note.

Actually PJII made disclaimers to his personal opinion. The traditional teaching of the Church never has. It would be interesting for our current Pope to tell us his personal opinion on capital punishment, form his previous works I think it would be quite different. If you do some study on the actual teaching of the church you will find that PJII is not upheld at all.

Personally with the number of convicted murderers and rapists that get out of jail and do it again I’m shocked anyone could believe “life in prison” (as if there is really a such thing) is in any way more merciful. How is it more merciful when an innocent person dies and a guilty person has one more horrible sin to atone for or be eternally punished for?

I also thing that anyone claiming that by letting them live they may have a change of heart are putting limits on Gods mercy and power. People forget that God gave the authority to the State to defend its self, its with that authority they are able to justifiably use capital punishment. How do you not know through this means of punishment for their crimes they are not given the graces at that moment necessary should they chose salvation?

There is absolutely NO comparison between the horrors of abortion and euthanasia and the use of capital punishment. Abortion and Euthanasia are Instinctly EVIL. Capital punish is and has always been taught to be self defence and morally justifiable. By putting the three things in the same sentence you obliterate the travesty of justice that occurred any time an innocent life is destroyed by human hands. (Before you even start about the number of innocent lives put to death you better have some good statistics)

 

[Ray_Scheel]

I know that the USA is the only industrialized nation that still has the death penalty, and I also know that the USA is famous for its high crime rates and gang activities.

Which definition of industrialized are you using? I’d consider China and Russia to both fall in the “industrialized” category, just for starters. We do have a high crime rate, though Britain is about to pass us per capita, and are doing considerably better othan average compared to other nations of equivalent longevity.

Countries that don’t have the death penalty, by contrast, somehow manage to have safe streets.

Such as…?

I’m sure the means for doing so is publicly available to those who are interested in making a career out of this kind of work. I’m sure your prison officials are already more aware of these techniques than I am, and just have reasons of their own for not wanting to implement them.

So, the reason you can’t prove the claim is that there is a worldwide conspiracy to keep secret the methods that can accomplish the goals you propose can be met with current knowledge? Sorry, that’s not a justification to claim knowledge of solutions you no admit you don’t have. Trying to score points by using a spurious claim to justify an air of indignation does not have a place in a debate where truth is the goal.

I’m not asking about what my prison officials are keeping secret: if your prison officials can do it why are they not trumpeting their success from the rooftops? I’ll give you the most likely reason: they are already starting to run into the same issues with the smaller numbers of dense urban centers present up there and are not having to deal with a influx of South American drug cartels to try to have to figure out how to deal with them.

 

[whatevergirl]

Actually PJII made disclaimers to his personal opinion. The traditional teaching of the Church never has. It would be interesting for our current Pope to tell us his personal opinion on capital punishment, form his previous works I think it would be quite different. If you do some study on the actual teaching of the church you will find that PJII is not upheld at all.

Personally with the number of convicted murderers and rapists that get out of jail and do it again I’m shocked anyone could believe “life in prison” (as if there is really a such thing) is in any way more merciful. How is it more merciful when an innocent person dies and a guilty person has one more horrible sin to atone for or be eternally punished for?

I also thing that anyone claiming that by letting them live they may have a change of heart are putting limits on Gods mercy and power. People forget that God gave the authority to the State to defend its self, its with that authority they are able to justifiably use capital punishment. How do you not know through this means of punishment for their crimes they are not given the graces at that moment necessary should they chose salvation?

There is absolutely NO comparison between the horrors of abortion and euthanasia and the use of capital punishment. Abortion and Euthanasia are Instinctly EVIL. Capital punish is and has always been taught to be self defence and morally justifiable. By putting the three things in the same sentence you obliterate the travesty of justice that occurred any time an innocent life is destroyed by human hands. (Before you even start about the number of innocent lives put to death you better have some good statistics)

so I’m clear…when someone commits a murder let’s say…they are less human than someone who doesn’t? We can’t judge anyone’s worth based on their actions. I think it is instinctive and human to do that, but not Godly. God doesn’t demerit someone based on their actions. Abortion and euthanasia is most certainly an attack on helpless and innocent life, but capital punishment declares that if a person commits a violent sin, their life is not worth having around. When we start determining who should live and who shouldn’t based on sins…we start treading into some dangerous waters. No one needs to agree with me on this…I’m stating my opinion. I am confused how one can be pro life yet pro DP. I am not just pro life in the fetus stage…I’m pro life, in all stages of life. If you disagree, that’s fine. It doesn’t change my mind on the matter…and I’m not trying to change anyone’s…or demean someone because he/she has a difference of opinion.

I’d rather err on the side of life…than have to explain my justification of this to God someday. and we can agree to disagree.

My husband believes in the DP…we go round and round over this constantly.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Never.

Vern: I start my job a prison guard next week

Your first step should be to invite all those who think a Super max can be made safe to join you.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Do you have a source for that?

Here’s the original study – which has spawned many others, all confirming the original:

gunsandcrime.org/miscstdi.html

CRIMES IN SEATTLE & VANCOUVER

In November, 1988, the NEJM had a report on a “study” by Sloan, Kellermann, Reay, and a long list of other doctors at the U. of Washington Dept of Surgery. The report was titled “Handgun regulations, crime, assaults, and homicide: A tale of two cities.” (well read, aren’t they?) The study consisted of examination of rates of various types of crimes in Seattle, Washington and Vancouver, British Columbia from 1980 through 1986.
They found that Seattle had about a 16 percent higher rate of aggravated assault (i.e., with weapon or injury), but that the rate of assault with guns was about 7 times higher. The homicide rate–adjusted for age and sex but not race, economic status, or differences in health care systems–was about 1.28 to 2.08 times higher in Seattle. They reported that virtually all of the excess risk in Seattle was “explained by a 4.8-fold higher risk of being murdered with a handgun in Seattle. We conclude that restricting access to handguns may reduce the rate of homicide in a community.”

The doctors’ reason for doing the study was that Canada essentially banned handgun carrying and handgun acquisition for self defense starting in 1978. The doctors hoped to claim that these restrictions were the only significant differences between the two cities, and to attribute a lower level of crime in Canada to those restrictions. But the homicide rate in Vancouver for the three years before the restrictions was lower (23 per year, av) than it was for the seven years covered by the study (29 per year, av). And, the proportion of those homicides committed with handguns was virtually identical for those two periods (one in eight). This would indicate that the handgun restrictions had no effect on homicide in Vancouver.

Note that the doctors did not account for differences in population race or income, in criminal justice systems, or in health care systems. **Homicide and gun victimization rates for non-hispanic whites are practically the same in Seattle and Vancouver. **

I am safe walking to and from Church at night, in the downtown of a city of one million. (Of course, very few of my neighbors are Caucasian. It might be a different story in the suburbs.)

How about in the States? Is it equally safe to walk at night downtown?

I don’t even lock my doors.

 

[jmcrae]

So, the rate of crime in Vancouver was lower than that of Seattle, both with and without handgun regulations.

What does this prove?

I don’t even lock my doors.

Do you live in the downtown area of a city of more than one million?

I do lock my doors at night, because we have urban nomads around here, and it can be startling to wander into one’s living room in one’s pyjamas, and find them sleeping there first thing in the morning. Unexpected guests tend to unsettle my nerves.

 

[LJN21]

so I’m clear…when someone commits a murder let’s say…they are less human than someone who doesn’t? We can’t judge anyone’s worth based on their actions.

Your mistaken in equating punishment with self worth. They are not less human because the killed someone, they do however have a punishment due to there crime and we have a responsibility to protect more innocents from them. If you kid brakes a window are they any less of a kid? Of course not! They do how ever have some obligation to repay the dept of the window depending on the age of the child. In some cases a stern talking too is enough to remedy the problem in others they may have to relinquish the base ball or work to pay for the window. After the window is fix is he still going to throw the ball toward the house?

I think it is instinctive and human to do that, but not Godly. God doesn’t demerit someone based on their actions.

God doesn’t punish people for all eternity based on their actions?

Abortion and euthanasia is most certainly an attack on helpless and innocent life, but capital punishment declares that if a person commits a violent sin, their life is not worth having around.

No at all.

We are protecting the innocent by preventing him form taking another life and possibly saving him from eternal punishment.

When we start determining who should live and who shouldn’t based on sins…we start treading into some dangerous waters. No one needs to agree with me on this…I’m stating my opinion.

We are not talking about just any sin we are talking about violent crime! Someone taking a piece of bubble gum is inherently different than murder commented in cold blood!

I am confused how one can be pro life yet pro DP. I am not just pro life in the fetus stage…I’m pro life, in all stages of life. If you disagree, that’s fine. It doesn’t change my mind on the matter…and I’m not trying to change anyone’s…or demean someone because he/she has a difference of opinion.

I’d rather err on the side of life…than have to explain my justification of this to God someday. and we can agree to disagree.

My husband believes in the DP…we go round and round over this constantly.

See I’d rather err on the side of the innocent life the they will take next. Being Pro-capital punish is pro-life, its pro-innocent life.

 

[whatevergirl]

Your mistaken in equating punishment with self worth. They are not less human because the killed someone, they do however have a punishment due to there crime and we have a responsibility to protect more innocents from them. If you kid brakes a window are they any less of a kid? Of course not! They do how ever have some obligation to repay the dept of the window depending on the age of the child. In some cases a stern talking too is enough to remedy the problem in others they may have to relinquish the base ball or work to pay for the window. After the window is fix is he still going to throw the ball toward the house?

God doesn’t punish people for all eternity based on their actions?

No at all.

We are protecting the innocent by preventing him form taking another life and possibly saving him from eternal punishment.

We are not talking about just any sin we are talking about violent crime! Someone taking a piece of bubble gum is inherently different than murder commented in cold blood!

See I’d rather err on the side of the innocent life the they will take next. Being Pro-capital punish is pro-life, its pro-innocent life.

and here is another reason why I like this board. I truly have learned something here. I’m not thick headed…seriously, I’m not…but this explanation really makes sense. I still don’t like the whole idea behind the DP…as I have always thought revenge is the Lord’s…but, your explanation makes a valid point, and is a different way of looking at the whole argument.

You could be a lawyer. I really appreciate the insight and sharing it with me…thank you.

 

[vern_humphrey]

So, the rate of crime in Vancouver was lower than that of Seattle, both with and without handgun regulations.

What does this prove?

It proves that the rate of violence among caucasians in Vancouver is as high as that in Seattle. (Other studies show the violence rate among caucasians in Vancouver is slightly higher.)

The difference in violence between the two cities is attributable to the difference in population make-up.

Do you live in the downtown area of a city of more than one million?

No, but my daughters do – and feel perfectly safe walking around there.

I do lock my doors at night, because we have urban nomads around here, and it can be startling to wander into one’s living room in one’s pyjamas, and find them sleeping there first thing in the morning. Unexpected guests tend to unsettle my nerves.

Gee, I thought you’d welcome them as part of your rehabilitation plan.

 

[jmcrae]

Gee, I thought you’d welcome them as part of your rehabilitation plan.

We have a shelter for them just a few blocks from here. They can go there.

PS; In any case, they don’t need to be “rehabilitated.” They aren’t criminals; they’re just poor.

 

[jmcrae]

It proves that the rate of violence among caucasians in Vancouver is as high as that in Seattle. (Other studies show the violence rate among caucasians in Vancouver is slightly higher.)

According to the article you posted,

They found that Seattle had about a 16 percent higher rate of aggravated assault (i.e., with weapon or injury), but that the rate of assault with guns was about 7 times higher.

That doesn’t sound “the same,” to me.

I don’t know what Caucasians have to do with the death penalty - unless you mean that, because Caucasians generally tend not to receive it, this causes them to have a higher rate of crime?

Except that, in Vancouver, nobody gets the death penalty - so I don’t think that explains the difference in Vancouver.

 

[vern_humphrey]

We have a shelter for them just a few blocks from here. They can go there.

“Is the treadmill in full flower? Are there no workhouses in England? Some would rather die than go there, you say? Well, let them do it, then, and reduce the surplus population.”

– Ebeneezer Scrooge.

PS; In any case, they don’t need to be “rehabilitated.” They aren’t criminals; they’re just poor.

You fingerprint them and run background checks on them, do you?

 

[jmcrae]

“Is the treadmill in full flower? Are there no workhouses in England? Some would rather die than go there, you say? Well, let them do it, then, and reduce the surplus population.”

– Ebeneezer Scrooge.

What has this got to do with anything? Our community shelter is not a prison, or a workhouse. No one is forced to go there.

You fingerprint them and run background checks on them, do you?

No more than I did with you - I just talk to them. They’re actually more like you than like me - hardheaded, opinionated, and extraordinarily passionate about the oddest little things.