When is the death penalty justified?

[Sheeniac]

We had a similar discusson regarding gun control.

The conclusion; Kill, or be killed.

And don’t forget to say your prayers; We’re christians!

Your conclusions are inaccurate and uncharitable/condescending to those of us who have different opinions. And that sideswipe of insinuating that we aren’t as Christian as you because we have differing opinions is incredibly insulting.

:nope:

 

[vern_humphrey]

Your conclusions are inaccurate and uncharitable/condescending to those of us who have different opinions. And that sideswipe of insinuating that we aren’t as Christian as you because we have differing opinions is incredibly insulting.

:nope:

Sadly, there are people who, when they lose the argument, resort to sneering insults and vituperation.

 

[estesbob]

You’ve lost your temper, and you’re saying things you know you shouldn’t say. Why not sit back and compose yourself before making another post?

Come on Vern-we all know you subscribe to the "Kill them all. let God sort them out "philosophy!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Come on Vern-we all know you subscribe to the "Kill them all. let God sort them out "philosophy!

That’s not true – I let the rotweillers keep some for chew-toys.

 

[jmcrae]

More statitics:

. Fact: The murder rates in many nations (such as England) were ALREADY LOW BEFORE enacting gun control. Thus, their restrictive laws cannot be credited with lowering their crime rates.1
2. Fact: Gun control has done nothing to keep crime rates from rising in many of the nations that have imposed severe firearms restrictions.

What has gun control got to do with whether or not to use the death penalty?

• Canada: After enacting stringent gun control laws in 1991 and 1995, Canada has not made its citizens any safer. “The contrast between the criminal violence rates in the United States and in Canada is dramatic,” says Canadian criminologist Gary Mauser in 2003. “Over the past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted.”

This is because, although there are gun laws on the books, they have never been enforced - it costs too much money. And still has nothing to do with the death penalty.

 

[estesbob]

That’s not true – I let the rotweillers keep some for chew-toys.

You sound like the model for the bad guy in Dean Konntz’s “Intensity” Suffice it to say you aint never getting me in your basement…

 

[vern_humphrey]

You sound like the model for the bad guy in Dean Konntz’s “Intensity” Suffice it to say you aint never getting me in your basement…

How do you know what evil acts take place in my basement?

 

[LJN21]

What has gun control got to do with whether or not to use the death penalty?

This is because, although there are gun laws on the books, they have never been enforced - it costs too much money. And still has nothing to do with the death penalty.

Tell that to the person that brought it up. (Note your quoting me replaying to it, not him.)

Secondly, the crime statics vs other countries are some what relevant to the capital punishment topic since several people keep talking about what a “dangerous” place the US is to live even tho we still have capital punishment.

 

[Peregrino]

So Aquinas and Augustine are wrong?

I have absolutely no problem disagreeing with them and saying that they are wrong. Just as I have absolutely no problem in saying that Aquinas’ idea of the “ensoulment” of a fetus (going through a “vegetative soul”, then “animal soul” and finally reaching “human soul” at 40 days) is wrong.

Do you really think that Jesus himself would throw the switch or tell you to?

 

[HailMary]

I’m sure that this has been said in this thread but the teachings of the Universal Catholic Church do not change but can grow. 4th century Ethopia probably didn’t have a way to deal with a rapist/serial killer so he can’t hurt other people, even if they managed to get him out of their town. Hence the DP was required, out of charity for him. In American, for example, its not since we have jails and can contain the offenders.

 

[LJN21]

I have absolutely no problem disagreeing with them and saying that they are wrong. Just as I have absolutely no problem in saying that Aquinas’ idea of the “ensoulment” of a fetus (going through a “vegetative soul”, then “animal soul” and finally reaching “human soul” at 40 days) is wrong.

Do you really think that Jesus himself would throw the switch or tell you to?

I think he did tell us:

“But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.” -Luke19:27

“For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil…Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.” -Romans 13:3-4

 

[LJN21]

I’m sure that this has been said in this thread but the teachings of the Universal Catholic Church do not change but can grow. 4th century Ethopia probably didn’t have a way to deal with a rapist/serial killer so he can’t hurt other people, even if they managed to get him out of their town. Hence the DP was required, out of charity for him. In American, for example, its not since we have jails and can contain the offenders.

Yes that has been point out.

Its also been pointed out people get out of jail all the time and murder again as well as killing there follow inmates.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

So its not okay for a christian to protect them self?

What if I chose to take marshal arts, carry pepper spray, have a big dog or just choose to lock my doors at night? Is it a shame I live in the American super power and I feel the need to protect me self in those ways? It doesn’t require a gun to kill someone in self defence.

Actully I think I’m problably much safer than you anyway.

worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902

weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/266umtwb.asp

Statistics can be found to prove anything. I’m sure a quick search on the internet will lead you to a Web site that shows America has one of the worst murder rates in the developed world, despite having death penalties and pro-gunners.

I would have thought that would be a very important statistic.

I would hate to see robberies go down, to see murder go up.

I know people quote that crime is going up here in Australia. But can we conclude that it came from anti-gun laws and no death penalty? Personally, I think immigration and culture clashes is causing crime, and that’s particularly embarrasing to me because of my Lebanese background.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

know people quote that crime is going up here in Australia. But can we conclude that it came from anti-gun laws and no death penalty?

If the gun laws were not responsible, what would be the reason that the Australian government withdrew and suppressed their quarterly crime stats for the first period following the implementation of the ban (within a few days of their publication on the web), the re-released figures tabulated in an entirely different way than the prior numbers with a disclaimer (also removed after a few weeks)that the differences in tabulation prevented accurate before and after statistical comparisons in relation to the gun ban?

The usual approach when radically changing closely followed statistical reporting measures is to publish the numbers both ways for a couple of periods so those following along with the numbers can follow the trends. A notation that the changes specifically prevented such an analysis of the effectiveness of the gun ban combined with what was found in the “unofficial” numbers that were initially released is telling enough to justify a charge of “cover-up” until the Australian government comes clean. (My guess is that both the publication of the inital numbers and the disclaimer were the actions of government statisticians who saw the coverup coming and took what action they could to let outsiders know there was a plan afoot to tweak the numbers to fit the popular anti-gun theory).

Added: the most impressive thing is tat even with the prior restructuring of how crime was to be reported to try to offset the apparent initial post-ban increase enough to look like a decrease, crime has continued to rise in its wake to the point that things are worse than they were before even if using the numbers produced in a shell game.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Statistics can be found to prove anything. I’m sure a quick search on the internet will lead you to a Web site that shows America has one of the worst murder rates in the developed world, despite having death penalties and pro-gunners.

I would have thought that would be a very important statistic.

I would hate to see robberies go down, to see murder go up.

I know people quote that crime is going up here in Australia. But can we conclude that it came from anti-gun laws and no death penalty? Personally, I think immigration and culture clashes is causing crime, and that’s particularly embarrasing to me because of my Lebanese background.

Let me get this straight – crime in American can only be due to our guns. But crime in Australia** cannot** be due to your gun laws?:whacky:

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Let me get this straight – crime in American can only be due to our guns. But crime in Australia** cannot** be due to your gun laws?:whacky:

Hi Vern,

That’s not quite what I’m suggesting. I’m suggesting that the culture regarding pro-gun-laws and pro-death-penalty is responsible for high murder rates.

But I guess, somebody will come up with a statistic that says America doesn’t have a high murder rate.

 

[LJN21]

Hi Vern,

That’s not quite what I’m suggesting. I’m suggesting that the culture regarding pro-gun-laws and pro-death-penalty is responsible for high murder rates.

But I guess, somebody will come up with a statistic that says America doesn’t have a high murder rate.

It does, but you have look at the areas its high and the gun laws and other economic situations involved before you and say its because of the Pro-gun-laws and pro-death-penalty. Gun laws very dramatically form State to State. I personally don’t feel like looking up the statistics right now but I have a feeling I know how they would look.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Hi Vern,

That’s not quite what I’m suggesting. I’m suggesting that the culture regarding pro-gun-laws and pro-death-penalty is responsible for high murder rates.

But I guess, somebody will come up with a statistic that says America doesn’t have a high murder rate.

Ahhhh, glad you cleared that up – our culture that supports ownership of firearms is responsible for our crime rate, but it’s ethnic diviersity that is responsible for your crime rate?

Despite the fact that our culture is more ethnically diverse than yours?

And we discount the vast mass of evidence that shows “shall issue” laws (where any citizen without a criminal record can carry a concealed firearm) are associated with crime in our country going down?

 

[whatevergirl]

Hi Vern,

That’s not quite what I’m suggesting. I’m suggesting that the culture regarding pro-gun-laws and pro-death-penalty is responsible for high murder rates.

But I guess, somebody will come up with a statistic that says America doesn’t have a high murder rate.

I somewhat agree with that

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Ahhhh, glad you cleared that up – our culture that supports ownership of firearms is responsible for our crime rate, but it’s ethnic diviersity that is responsible for your crime rate? …

No, vern; Please allow me another chance to explain further…

They are contributing factors. You can never explain crime to one particular reason. (For example, surely we would all agree that poverty and unemployment are factors contributing to crime.)

I’m merely suggesting that the culture of pro-guns and pro-death-penalty is another contributing factor to high murder rates.