When is the death penalty justified?

[whatevergirl]

What’s with the use of the future tense, “will?” Florida has had concealed carry for more than a quarter of a century – and hasn’t had the calamaties you “predict.”

Devout Catholics do not go around infringing other people’s rights and denying them what they need to protect their families.

i don’t think you’re reading my posts. nothing new. you have done that before…only view partial posts, and then presume to know that i think this or that. again, i am for protecting one’s self…not carrying a gun in public. you don’t need to shoot someone in public…others can be harmed. unless you are skilled like a cop, you should not be carrying a gun into a public place.

actually, that’s what i have been saying, vern.

 

[vern_humphrey]

i don’t think you’re reading my posts. nothing new. you have done that before…only view partial posts, and then presume to know that i think this or that. again, i am for protecting one’s self…not carrying a gun in public. you don’t need to shoot someone in public…others can be harmed. unless you are skilled like a cop, you should not be carrying a gun into a public place.

Then why do you keep using the future tense? Why do you say this “will” happen, that “will” happen when your state has over a quarter of a century of experience with concealed carry for all citizens of good repute?

The honest thing would be to go back and see what did happen in that quarter of a century. And what happened was violent crime went down. Armed citizens did not have shootouts. Armed citizens committed fewer crimes per capita than the police!

And thousands of defensive uses of those firearms saved many lives.

 

[whatevergirl]

Then why do you keep using the future tense? Why do you say this “will” happen, that “will” happen when your state has over a quarter of a century of experience with concealed carry for all citizens of good repute?

The honest thing would be to go back and see what did happen in that quarter of a century. And what happened was violent crime went down. Armed citizens did not have shootouts. Armed citizens committed fewer crimes per capita than the police!

And thousands of defensive uses of those firearms saved many lives.

is that why Orlando has shot up 44% in gun related crimes…? We won’t see eye to eye on this vern, and that is ok. We can be different and still be God’s children. Thankfully, there is no need for guns in the after life.

 

[vern_humphrey]

is that why Orlando has shot up 44% in gun related crimes…?

There are many reasons for Orlando’s rise in crime, but concealed carry by honest citizens is not one of them.

We won’t see eye to eye on this vern, and that is ok. We can be different and still be God’s children. Thankfully, there is no need for guns in the after life.

As long as no one infringes on our Constitutional rights, I’m friends with everyone.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

I see that as being excessive. That is my opinion, and not moral relativism. I do know that we need to protect ourselves…that we should have that right. I just think that packing a gun everywhere we go…it could lead to serious consequences.

Believing open carry is excessive is not at all the the same thing as alleging that would increase their criminal use when you know that all practical evidence shows that violent crime drops when shall carry laws are implemented.

is that why Orlando has shot up 44% in gun related crimes…? We won’t see eye to eye on this vern, and that is ok. We can be different and still be God’s children.

Now you’ve switched to false causation with another stab at relativism…

 

[whatevergirl]

how do you know your stats are accurate and mine are false? you don’t know that. the internet is filled with stats frankly supporting both sides of this coin.

i’m not against having a gun for protection…not for carrying it out in public. and it’s not relativism to choose that opinion.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

how do you know your stats are accurate and mine are false? you don’t know that. the internet is filled with stats frankly supporting both sides of this coin.

Where are the stats showing crime increasing in correlation with the implementation of shall carry laws within a population group? I would love to see something that doesn’t require a 25 year lag time and massive changes in social conditions before the possibility of a correlation shows up within a given population.

 

[whatevergirl]

Where are the stats showing crime increasing in correlation with the implementation of shall carry laws within a population group? I would love to see something that doesn’t require a 25 year lag time and massive changes in social conditions before the possibility of a correlation shows up within a given population.

well then, i’m bowing out…you never set the parameters…

 

[whatevergirl]

i just discussed some of this thread with my husband…he said you need a permit to carry a gun in public…what does that require? do you have a separate permit for in the house, and out?

now he is talking about buying a gun for protection…he said, without it, you might not have a fighting chance. you don’t go to a gun fight, with your fists.

looks like an offline discussion will be ensuing soon…i don’t know if i want a gun in the house. the thought of that scares me. i don’t think it’s wrong to protect ourselves, as i’ve stated…but i’m more against it than for it. oh well…thanks for chatting everyone.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

i just discussed some of this thread with my husband…he said you need a permit to carry a gun in public…what does that require? do you have a separate permit for in the house, and out?

Most places, in the house you don’t have to have a permit at all. To carry outside requires completing a safety and competence course plus passing a background check, but I’d recommend getting qualified to carry to anyone who wanted a handgun at all just to have the training (if they were not already properly trained in handling firearms).

 

[whatevergirl]

Most places, in the house you don’t have to have a permit at all. To carry outside requires completing a safety and competence course plus passing a background check, but I’d recommend getting qualified to carry to anyone who wanted a handgun at all just to have the training (if they were not already properly trained in handling firearms).

u don’t have to have a permit to keep it in the house?

 

[Ray_Scheel]

u don’t have to have a permit to keep it in the house?

Nope. You have to pass the background check to buy it in the first place, and have a legal obligation to keep it secured, but in most jurisdictions no permit is required for in-home possession.

 

[whatevergirl]

Nope. You have to pass the background check to buy it in the first place, and have a legal obligation to keep it secured, but in most jurisdictions no permit is required for in-home possession.

interesting…thanks for this info ray.

 

[LJN21]

i just discussed some of this thread with my husband…he said you need a permit to carry a gun in public…what does that require? do you have a separate permit for in the house, and out?

now he is talking about buying a gun for protection…he said, without it, you might not have a fighting chance. you don’t go to a gun fight, with your fists.

looks like an offline discussion will be ensuing soon…i don’t know if i want a gun in the house. the thought of that scares me. i don’t think it’s wrong to protect ourselves, as i’ve stated…but i’m more against it than for it. oh well…thanks for chatting everyone.

It varies form state to state.

Here we have a law that upholds use of lethal force in home invasions which was recently extended to cover vehicles. This does not require any sort of permit. Every now and then you hear of someone braking in to someones home and getting shot by the home owner, our home invasion rate has drop a lot.

Our concealed carry permit requires a back ground check and classes that teach you the laws regarding handguns in public and when you can and can’t not use lethal force. Basically you can only use it to defend your self and your family.

As far as having one in the house I’d suggest if your really uncomfortable with it go to the range and learn how to use one before making any decisions. My Dad is police officer and is required by law to carry a gun where ever he goes. Needless to say we had several guns around the house. (We also lived on a couple acres and had small livestock and a stray dog problem.) We were taught form a very young age respect for guns just like you would teach kids about fire knives or anything else that could seriously hurt them. As we got older we learned how to use them. Education is the most important thing to avoid accidents.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… When my god son was about four or five years old, his Mom got herself a handgun. It was empty, and he was just holding it quietly in the front seat…

Well, the gun was empty. I guess it is OK for children to play with empty guns. (I think.)

… Here we have a law that upholds use of lethal force in home invasions which was recently extended to cover vehicles. This does not require any sort of permit. Every now and then you hear of someone braking in to someones home and getting shot by the home owner, our home invasion rate has drop a lot.

I bet the number of teenagers sneeking out at night and sneeking back in has dropped too. You wouldn’t want to be mistaken in the dark as an intruder.

… We were taught form a very young age respect for guns just like you would teach kids about fire knives or anything else that could seriously hurt them. As we got older we learned how to use them. Education is the most important thing to avoid accidents.

Very true. But the reason why we have crime is because people don’t have respect, and they are not educated.

One of my favourite sayings: “Common sense isn’t very common.”

 

[dudleysharp]

I read your essay and noted a strange thing. You seem to have a very protestant notion of justice in your belief. Justice is not a long list of punishments attached to corresponding sin. I recommend this thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=163165
for a contrast between the definition of justice you seem to subscribe to and the Catholic idea of justice as I understand it.

My essay was a proper deconstruction of PJPII’s errors in fact and logic and why that made it an improper guide for Church teaching.

In addition, outside of his logic and fact errors, I also gave numerous Catholic sources to contradict PJPII’s positions, also within my essay. In addition, I provided a comprensive list of links to current Catholic thinkers on this topic, all of whom either questioned the good Pope’s and the Church’s recent teachings on this topic or fully refuted those recent teachings.

This was done within the context of biblical, theological and traditional teachings of the Church.

 

[LJN21]

Well, the gun was empty. I guess it is OK for children to play with empty guns. (I think.)

Absolutely not! Most accidents happen with “unloaded” handguns. Never in a million years do you let kids play with a gun because its "unloaded"and “safe”. You teach them no matter what you act as if its ready to be fired.

Of course it bugs me to no end when kids play with toys guns (which I don’t have a problem with) and point them at people. shrug

I bet the number of teenagers sneeking out at night and sneeking back in has dropped too. You wouldn’t want to be mistaken in the dark as an intruder.

You almost make it sound like teenagers have a right to sneak out. Anwyay, thats one of those nice what ifs that just hasn’t ever happened. Teenagers tend to do things like go out there bedroom window with out making noise, not braking a window or braking in the front door.

 

[melensdad]

Not sure what the gun issue has to do with the death penalty, but children should be taught some simple firearms rules.

Children:

• Do not touch a gun.
• If you see a gun, leave it alone and find an adult.
  Teens/Adults:
• Treat all guns as if they are loaded.
• Always assume every gun is loaded and check it upon picking it up.
• Never put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to shoot the gun.
• Never point the gun at anyone/anything you do not intend to shoot.
• Never assume the safety is on, or that the safety will work.
• Always know what is beyond your target and never shoot if there is a possibility that your bullet will find an unintended resting place.
  As for the death penalty issue, I’ve stayed out of this thread until now. But here in the USA there does not seem to be any compelling evidence to ever use the death penalty. It is not an effective deterrent because it is not used often enough or quickly enough. The appeals process takes years to go through which eliminates the swift application of justice. The cost of execution exceeds the cost of incarceration. Other nations may be able to justify the death penalty, but I don’t see it here under our screwed up system of law. JMO

 

[vern_humphrey]

As for the death penalty issue, I’ve stayed out of this thread until now. But here in the USA there does not seem to be any compelling evidence to ever use the death penalty. It is not an effective deterrent because it is not used often enough or quickly enough. The appeals process takes years to go through which eliminates the swift application of justice. The cost of execution exceeds the cost of incarceration. Other nations may be able to justify the death penalty, but I don’t see it here under our screwed up system of law. JMO

The death penalty is justified and needed for those who kill Corrections Officers, police officers, judges, jurymen, prosecutors or their families.

 

[Ender]

what is surprising and somewhat shocking…is that this is often a Catholic stance…I don’t get that. It’s a confusing statement to say…I’m pro life, but I support the death penalty.

I think the Catholic view of life is more complicated than you realize. The Roman Catechism of 1566 “taught that the power of life and death had been entrusted by God to civil authorities and that the use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment.” (Cardinal Dulles) That is, executing the guilty is the pro-life position.

This is why the Church also teaches that killing in self defense (as a last resort) is justified as is killing in a just war. You view the issue too narrowly by looking only at the death of the aggressor. Finally, the execution of those guilty of certain crimes is a requirement of justice and it is not “pro-life” to demand that justice be ignored.

Ender