When is the Great Apostasy?

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normdplume

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Hi. I’m wondering if someone can answer a question for me. Does the Great Apostasy occur before the coming of the Two Witnesses, or does it occur as a result of the persecution by the Antichrist? Is there a common Catholic view on this?

Thank you.
Norm
 
My understanding is that it’s already occurred. It was also called the Reformation.
 
While there is no final Church position on the Book of Revelation, most Catholic scholars favor the interpretation of most events (including the 2 witnesses) focusing on the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This would take the present age to be the ‘thousand years with Christ’ age.
 
How is it possible that the ministry of the Two Witnesses is already complete? The fullness of the Gentiles has not been brought into the Church, nor the Jews.

Thanks
Norm
 
The 2 witnesses are associated to a city: ‘and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified’ Rev 11:8
If the city is Jerusalem, which was destroyed in 70 AD, that has already been fulfilled. Nowhere is said the 2 witnesses are associated to the whole world.
 
normdplume said:
How is it possible that the ministry of the Two Witnesses is already complete? The fullness of the Gentiles has not been brought into the Church, nor the Jews.

Thanks

Norm
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Not a problem. The Catholic Church- as well as the Eastern Orthodox and the 16th Century Protestant reformers are known as Amillennialists.

The descriptions in Revelation are largely events that already happened a long time ago, and we’re just waiting on the return of Jesus at this point in time.

As far as the theology of Darby, and the Millerites, and the “Left Behind” series, and Hal Lindsey, none of that has anything to do with Catholicism.
 
The following is from the Catechism (674): The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus.

I’ve got three Catholic study guides that tie an ongoing or future ministry of the Two Witnesses to the conversion of the Jews.
 
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It may have already occurred, people say it’s vatican II- when they completely changed the mass without approval from heaven

Other people say its Amoris Leititia - Pope’s Francis new teachings of love and the family, where in chapter 8 it talks about communion for the remarried and divorce, as this completely goes against all catholic teaching.

Who knows?
 
If we live our lives like the next second could be our last, all of the speculation around these “prophecies” and when, where or if they will or have been fulfilled is irrelevant. Lots of people say lots of things. Live your life the best you possibly can and let God worry about the rest.
 
I agree and if we reach heaven we will be like angels, meaning we will have perfect knowledge of things that are a mystery to us now
 
I’m not doing this for personal reasons but rather as research for a Catholic-friendly series of novels about the end times. The research has been a terrific exercise for learning more about Catholicism.
 
The Great Apostasy, or final persecution, definitely lies in the future.

It immediately precedes the Eschaton or Second Coming but will arise after the conversion of the Jews and the fullness of the Gentiles entering the Church (both of which still, likewise, lie in our future).

The Catechism tells us:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm

The Church’s ultimate trial
675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
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Personally, I am of the opinion that the apostasy or “supreme religious deception” will take the form of transhumanism in some future century:

 
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It’s a common thought that the Apostasy is occurring right now. Many saints revelations have said that the Apostasy is before the 3 Days of Darkness, before the Great Monarch, and before the Anti Christ. It’s the sort of accumulation of evil, even from within the Church, from high ranks that causes God to chastise the world.

Our Lady of La Salette, Our Lady of Good Success, and Our Lady of Akita are apparitions that give more detailed information on this.

This is slightly unrelated, but if you have looked at Garabandal apparitions (not approved yet) which St. Padre Pio believed in and is strikingly similar to Fatima, they speak of a Warning that is to occur before everything. They say that event will bring about a lot of conversions and even bring Protestants back into the fold.
 
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One of my study guides speculates that the Catholic Monarch and the Angelic Pope are the Two Witnesses, since they play a largely similar role in the end times. Otherwise you have the Monarch/Pope bring about a revival of Catholicism, which then falls away, then is brought back by the Two Witnesses, which then falls away during the Great Apostasy.
 
That would make sense! I’ve always viewed it as thus:

Warning: this is a lot of speculation after researching this topic for a few years from sources like saints prophecies.

There’s a Warning from God. Many convert. Then a miracle lasting until the end of time in the sky. After that, there’s the 3 Days of Darkness wiping out a large portion of the world, those mainly against God and religion. Then there’s period of peace with a Great Monarch lasting 25 years. After that, something happens (perhaps the Great Monarch dies or people become corrupt) and suddenly the Anti Christ is on the scene doing miraculous things, raising people from the dead (not really though it’s all just a show by devils), making his portrait talk, etc. 2/3 of the world convert and believe him and even Christians begin to doubt because his “miracles” are so great. meanwhile he is murdering people who don’t convert and everyone else is afraid and can barely hide. During this time, there are two witnesses, faithful Catholics, who I think go out and try to stop all this nonsense and try to knock some sense into the people. They are martyred. After 3 or so years of the Anti Christ’s rampage, he even fake dies and acts like he is going to resurrect and ascend to Heaven. Right as he is about to “asend” a lighting bolt strikes him and he is killed by St. Michael. 45 days later Judgement Day occurs.
 
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Vouthon said:
The Great Apostasy, or final persecution, definitely lies in the future.
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I find it interesting that you mention the phrase, “final persecution.”

The Prophecy of the Popes phrase for Pope Francis is:

“In psecutione. extrema S.R.E. sedebit.”

Which translates to: “He will reign in the final persecution. of the Holy Roman Church.”
 
normdplume said:
Hi. I’m wondering if someone can answer a question for me. Does the Great Apostasy occur before the coming of the Two Witnesses, or does it occur as a result of the persecution by the Antichrist? Is there a common Catholic view on this?
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Daniel 12.11 states " And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days"
The Church interprets this as the cessation of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Blessed Eucharist. A thousand, two hundred and ninety days, or three and a half years is the biblical term for the period of persecution .( the Great Tribulation )
In 2 Thess 2, 3-8 " Let no one deceive you in any way, for the day of the Lord will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition , who opposes and is exalted above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sits in the temple of God and gives himself out as if he was God. V6 And now you know what restrains him that he may be revealed in his proper time. For the mystery of iniquity is already at work, provided only that he who is at present restraining it does still restrain, until he is gotten out of the way. And then the wicked one will be revealed"
These exerpts , one from the Old and one from the New Testament are saying that the Great Apostasy will result in the appearance on earth of the Antichrist. People ask who is the Restrainer mentioned in 2 Thess 2 :6,7 who must be gotten out of the way to make way for the Antichrist ? Daniel 12:11 answers the question, when he states " the continual sacrifice shall be taken away " The Catholic understanding of this verse is that the Daily Mass and the consecration of the Eucharist will ( at the period of persecution) be outlawe, to make way for the Antichrist to present himself…
 
I’ve got three Catholic study guides that tie an ongoing or future ministry of the Two Witnesses to the conversion of the Jews.
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normdplume. There IS significance in the “two witnesses” and all the other events that concern the destruction of Jerusalem.

Why?

Because there are layers of fulfillment or differing “senses” of fulfillment of those prior events.

See CCC (if I recall correctly) 113-118 to illustrate the differing senses that are at least a possibility.

Dr. Brant Pitre and Dr. Scott Hahn do great work in explaining these different senses of fulfillment.

May I recomend a free Dr. Pitre audio concerning the end times? It doesn’t address the issue directly that you are asking about, but it DOES illustrate how the differing senses of Scripture can be applied.

Also I would recomend David Currie’s books on the end times as well.

God bless.

Cathoholic

PS. If you are interested, in the Pitre talk, I’ll try to get you the link when I am at my computer (instead of an android device).
 
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The Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen is an excellent book that perfectly covers the Catholic view on the end times.
 
Hello.

I found the book “The Antichrist” very comforting and informative about questions dealing with the end times. It is by Vincent P. Miceli, S.J.
 
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