When Is The Line Crossed?

[Antonius_Lupus]

I have concluded that coming across images of nudity, erotica, or some other such explicit or semi-explicit material is not, in-and-of-itself sinful. I am not trying to say here that we shouldn’t be guarding ourselves from such things nor that we should be tolerable of or looking for these images or interactions (as they may be).

What I am saying is that merely seeing briefly such a bad image or thinking such a poor thought is not at all sinful. Rather, the sin comes in *using *such images, interactions, and/or thoughts in order to *pursue *sexual impurity or sin in any form. Thus seeing a naked image (such as in art) or a provocative image (which is everywhere) or even a pornographic or nude image (such as on the web or in movies) is not sinful…what is sinful is when you dwell on such an image (or thought) and you knowingly do so for the purposes of impure arousal.

Therefore, I feel I might be getting a grip on those instances in my life of “disturbed peace.” Sometimes when I see something impure, or when I see such things and out of curiosity take a brief second-look, my peace is attacked and disturbed greatly. Yet I am beginning to think that this is merely scrupulosity. I am beginning to think that I need to just keep my peace and trust that merely seeing such images briefly, gazing on them for a period of seconds, and even taking a brief second look out of puerile curiosity, is NOT a grave/mortal sin and should trust in that.

I guess what I am asking is: when is the line crossed into mortal sin with regard to images and thoughts?

 

[ChildOfTheLight]

You are spot on in that simply seeing them is not a sin:thumbsup:!

I think I’ve heard that even the second look is a reflex (see recent Ask An Apologist). The looking becomes a sin I think when we enjoy the lustful impure thoughts that come from the images. Are you thinking, “Yes, I want to think impure thoughts, or enjoy that impure image for being impure”? If not, I’d say your fine.

People who study anatomy would have a hard time memorizing certain diagrams in a single split second look .

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

So I guess it’s pretty clear cut based on intention, huh?

 

[Jaguar]

I guess what I am asking is: when is the line crossed into mortal sin with regard to images and thoughts?

My advice … stay away from the “line” if at all possible!

 

[Boulder257]

My advice … stay away from the “line” if at all possible!

I have to agree with this. It reminds of a black hole in a way. You can walk right up to the event horizon and not be sucked in, but take one more step and you are gone. Why even try to get as close as you can. Instead, turn your back on the black hole all together and walk the other way.

 

[Bookcat]

See by accident some image…or some thought occurring to one out of the blue…is not a sin (of course we can be responsible for putting ourselves into certain temptations and occasions…).

Remember…for mortal sin in fact there must be not only the grave matter…but the full knowledge and the deliberate consent…or the “complete consent”.

(feel free to PM if you need more)

In terms of thoughts…and one will find it useful otherwise as well:

(from previous posts of mine)

Regarding thoughts

while Jesus makes it clear that one can sin in ones thoughts…just cause some lustful thought happens does not mean that one sinned…

(and one can have a sufficiently good reason to think about sexual matters…for instance studying moral theology…but care must be taken to avoid things that would be a problem…but that is another question)

What should we do with* unwanted* sexual thoughts or other bad thoughts…thoughts against God etc? Those pesky temptations that can come …even though we are not seeking them etc…

(there are of course some things we should avoid that cause them…and there can be sin if it is something one should reasonably avoid…but often they come uninvited)

First…Relax. Do not worry.

Now are they mortal sins?

For a mortal sin one needs a grave matter …full knowledge AND deliberate consent!!!

A. If you do not want the thought…it the thought displeases you: it can be a sign actually that you did not give consent or do not give full consent.

B. Even if you felt a temptation for the thought – and were drawn to it —but rejected it and maybe even turned to God : again a sign not full consent.

C. But what if one has a tempting thought --say of a sexual nature and even hesitated for a moment…but then rejected it for one did not want to sin? : it can be partial consent perhaps (and thus a venial sin)-- or it may be no sin at all but rather a strong temptation that drew you but then you saw what was happening and turned away.

D. A temptation can even be very strong or the thoughts very often – but this does NOT mean one has consented! so worry not…even it they go on for a long time…

remember --for it to be mortal there must be that deliberate consent!

What to do? on the spiritual side–relax first of all and remember the above.

Next – know that the more one fears the thoughts the more likely they are to come… or said another way --the more a person seeks to avoid the thoughts the more likely he will have a problem with them. (but do not worry about this either!)

for example: for the next 10 seconds try NOT to think of an apple.

tick tock …

tick tock…

Ok what did you think of? Most likely an apple.

So it is best to ignore them and just not consent and then turn your attention to some other good thing…for instance whatever you are doing. Simply do not consent and move on. and do not worry

another point – thoughts can just happen --they are the stuff with which we think…it is up to us to consent and take them further or not. and just because they are REAL VIVID and almost “think themselves” does not mean per se that one has given ANY consent.

they can be annoying…but need cause no actual harm …

(Now difficulties with thoughts can happen to anyone…and has for centuries…nothing new!..but I will note too that “some” have a condition known as OCD (I knew someone with this once…it was a painful experience)…and thus should seek further professional help to work at overcoming it and to live a more peaceful life)

---

Another help…is the distinction between “first thoughts and emotions” (as Baur calls em) what they call the prima of the prima…“the first of the first” (as one of my Professors called em…he was a Dominican)…these are involuntary things that just come up…such are not sins. They can tempt one of course to sin…or one can then proceed to some sin…but they are the stuff of the mind and emotions which “happen to one” …and really the are opportunities for growing in virtue etc as well…

How to deal with these? First of relax…don’t scruple…don’t fear them…to try to swat them all as the come…just simply turn to other things…or the thing you are doing…or to God…(of course do not consent)…but if you are too defensive against them…they may get worse actually…and confuse you more…instead turn to God or again other good things…accept that hey…somethings wild thoughts will come to you…

(and these can happen to all of us by the way…)

There is a story from the desert of the early Centuries of the Church where a younger hermit when to an older one with the problems of thoughts happening to him all the time…the older hermit told him to go outside open his cloak and catch the wind.

The younger hermit said such is not possible…

the older hermit replied --neither is it possible to stop all the thoughts that can come to you…your choice is to say “yes” or “no”.

So relax about “unwanted thoughts”…sometimes they just come…you know like unwanted phone calls from politicitians and salepersons etc…but you can always say “no thank you” or just ignore the call and go about your business

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

I have to agree with this. It reminds of a black hole in a way. You can walk right up to the event horizon and not be sucked in, but take one more step and you are gone. Why even try to get as close as you can. Instead, turn your back on the black hole all together and walk the other way.

I know but sometimes, given society, you really can’t help it.

 

[Boulder257]

I know but sometimes, given society, you really can’t help it.

Oh, I could not agree with you more. You are absolutely correct. That’s why we have to try so hard to walk the other way. Personally, I get frustrated by the way sex is so ingrained in our society. You can’t watch TV, look at a billboard, read a magazine, etc. without someone trying to sell you something using sex.

You are spot on my friend!

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Oh, I could not agree with you more. You are absolutely correct. That’s why we have to try so hard to walk the other way. Personally, I get frustrated by the way sex is so ingrained in our society. You can’t watch TV, look at a billboard, read a magazine, etc. without someone trying to sell you something using sex.

You are spot on my friend!

Greenville, eh? I’m from Aiken. Both from Diocese of Charleston. Small world.

 

[Boulder257]

Greenville, eh? I’m from Aiken. Both from Diocese of Charleston. Small world.

Wow! Just down the road then! How cool!!

 

[TimothyH]

My advice … stay away from the “line” if at all possible!

I know but sometimes, given society, you really can’t help it.

It’s ubiquitous. You can’t get away from it. But sexual immorality is the one sin the Bible tells us to flee from (1 Corinthians 6:18). Jaguar has it right. Don’t hang out on the edge. Run like hell.

Augustine wrote in City of God that the holy virgins who were raped during the sack of Rome by the Visigoths in 410 retained their purity if they did not desire sexual contact and even if they experienced bodily pleasure from it. He reasoned that the flesh will react with pleasurable sensations but that if the desire to stay pure was present and the physical pleasure was not wanted, then purity remained.

Personally, I wouldn’t go run off to a strip club and claim that I was still pure. And the danger is that repeated exposure hightens our desire for the pleasure. But if we happen to glimpse an image through no fault of our own, and even if we find it pleasurable, if our intent is pure, then it is not a sin.

Blessed John Paul II wrote about this in his catechesis “Theology of the Body”, that Christ came not to hep us control our urges or to give us coping mechanisms but to take away sin, to actually remove our struggles from us. My experience is that it is possible to become detached to the point where one can view such things with a holy indifference. It takes work though and is a constant struggle. Sometimes it’s easier to just run like hell.

-Tim-

 

[Della]

I know that this is usually a greater problem for the guys than us gals, still it’s everywhere and is nearly impossible to avoid. I often stop and pray for the people who pose for such pictures, who take them and publish them, for their salvation (not that I think they are any more likely to be damned than me, but because being involved in that kind of business puts them in great spiritual danger). Thinking about and praying for them, IOW, seeing them as souls for whom Christ died instead of objects, helps to curb any fantasizing about them.